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Old 04-02-2009, 02:59 PM
 
44,744 posts, read 43,301,807 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ulnevrwalkalone View Post


You mean MURDER??? Like the kind of things there are laws against??? The laws that were made based on people's morality???

Was this a point against my last point or a point against abortion in general?
Against abortion.
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Old 04-02-2009, 03:20 PM
 
1,245 posts, read 1,231,098 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ulnevrwalkalone View Post
How does this argument keep finding its way back to me?? Look, bottom line is its all about morality. You talk of our rights, but who decided on those? A bunch of guys who decided certain things were morally obligated to be granted to people and cannot be taken away. And if you had a national vote about the neo nazis I would bet you find a lot of people voting to allow it because they believe in the morality behind the right to assembly and free speech. ALL LAWS COME FROM MORALITY!!!
You can stomp your feet and say its all about morality all you want, doesn't make it true. America was founded on its freedoms, not on its laws. Laws are simply in place to protect those freedoms. Morality has absolutely nothing to do with it, which is why some immoral things are legal here in America. Its not like someone thought that killing was a mean thing to do so they outlawed it, murder is outlawed because it takes away someone else's right to live. Again, morality has nothing to do with it whatsoever.

And just like some people would vote to support neo nazis, some people would vote to legalize abortion. Both of those things are immoral, but both are necessary in order for America to remain a free nation.
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Old 04-02-2009, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,803,266 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickeldude View Post
You can stomp your feet and say its all about morality all you want, doesn't make it true. America was founded on its freedoms, not on its laws. Laws are simply in place to protect those freedoms. Morality has absolutely nothing to do with it, which is why some immoral things are legal here in America. Its not like someone thought that killing was a mean thing to do so they outlawed it, murder is outlawed because it takes away someone else's right to live. Again, morality has nothing to do with it whatsoever.

And just like some people would vote to support neo nazis, some people would vote to legalize abortion. Both of those things are immoral, but both are necessary in order for America to remain a free nation.
A majority of our laws are actually based on moral principles.
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Old 04-02-2009, 03:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
A majority of our laws are actually based on moral principles.
Source?
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Old 04-02-2009, 03:53 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,803,266 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickeldude View Post
Source?
Not exactly a source...but an interesting article...

Jewish Law - Commentary/Opinion - Morality And The Law: A Case Study In Hawaii

It says this...

"There can further be no question that when society arrives at such a clear consensus of right and wrong, of what is morally appropriate and what is not, government has an interest in the preservation of laws that reflect the social moral consensus.

For example, in Bowers v. Hardwick (U.S. 1986), the Supreme Court expressly found that "the law.. is constantly based on notions of morality", and that "majority sentiments about the morality of homosexuality" furnish a sufficient basis to uphold anti-sodomy laws against due process attack. In Barnes v. Glen Theatre (U.S. 1991), the Court concluded that a "public indecency statute furthers a substantial interest in protecting order and morality," thereby shielding it from free speech attack."

I know that sodomy laws have been overturned but public indecency laws have not. They have to do with morals.
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Old 04-02-2009, 03:58 PM
 
1,245 posts, read 1,231,098 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
Not exactly a source...but an interesting article...

Jewish Law - Commentary/Opinion - Morality And The Law: A Case Study In Hawaii

It says this...

"There can further be no question that when society arrives at such a clear consensus of right and wrong, of what is morally appropriate and what is not, government has an interest in the preservation of laws that reflect the social moral consensus.

For example, in Bowers v. Hardwick (U.S. 1986), the Supreme Court expressly found that "the law.. is constantly based on notions of morality", and that "majority sentiments about the morality of homosexuality" furnish a sufficient basis to uphold anti-sodomy laws against due process attack. In Barnes v. Glen Theatre (U.S. 1991), the Court concluded that a "public indecency statute furthers a substantial interest in protecting order and morality," thereby shielding it from free speech attack."

I know that sodomy laws have been overturned but public indecency laws have not. They have to do with morals.
Yeah an interesting article, but not the be all and end all its still just an article. But your last tidbit only further proves my point, sodomy laws were once thought to uphold morality, but morality somehow changed? no freedom prevailed just like it did when blacks were made full citizens and given rights, and just like when abortion is eventually made legal. All outlawed based on whoever's morals, and all overturned based on freedom.
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Old 04-02-2009, 03:59 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,803,266 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickeldude View Post
Yeah an interesting article, but not the be all and end all its still just an article. But your last tidbit only further proves my point, sodomy laws were once thought to uphold morality, but morality somehow changed? no freedom prevailed just like it did when blacks were made full citizens and given rights, and just like when abortion is eventually made legal. All outlawed based on whoever's morals, and all overturned based on freedom.
Abortion IS already legal.

But anyway, what people perceive as being "moral" or "immoral" is what changes and that's pretty much how morality affects the law.
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Old 04-02-2009, 06:21 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,433,820 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
Abortion IS already legal.
In the United States it is.

Keep in mind - this forum draws people from various countries - some where abortion may not, in fact, be legal.
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Old 04-02-2009, 07:47 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,803,266 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday View Post
In the United States it is.

Keep in mind - this forum draws people from various countries - some where abortion may not, in fact, be legal.
He mentioned on another thread that he lives in Vegas.
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Old 04-03-2009, 02:15 AM
 
24,793 posts, read 26,927,364 times
Reputation: 22864
Quote:
Originally Posted by ulnevrwalkalone View Post
I have to assume this has been done before but I want to hear peoples stance on one of the most controversial debates of our time. Please post your stance first before u start arguing against other peoples stance.

and as always, there is no reason we cannot be civil about this so dont go postal on anyone for stating their beliefs .
My position is that abortion should remain legal but that we should do everything within our power to MAKE IT RARE. That means stressing the importance of abstinence in schools. But it also means teaching about birth control as a Plan B.

Whether you consider yourself pro life or pro choice, we should ALL consider it a horror that we have 1.2 MILLION abortions every year in this country.

We need to come up with practical and creative strategies to reduce the number of unplanned pregnancies.

For a spiritual (but non-Fundamentalist Christian) perspective on abortion, read the links (and excerpt) below:

http://www.askrealjesus.com/L_CURRENTAFFAIRS/POLITICAL/abortion.html (broken link)

....just as an individual can make karma, so can an entire nation. Currently, the United States and many other nations that allow abortions, have made severe national karma. Once again, people on both sides of the abortion debate will deny or ignore this fact. Yet, as I have now said many times, the law is the law and it is not changed by human opinions. It is truly possible for a nation to make such severe karma that it can affect the entire nation for generations to come. Thus, the sins of the fathers can truly come back to haunt the third and fourth generation.

Last edited by mysticaltyger; 04-03-2009 at 02:38 AM..
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