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Old 04-08-2009, 08:15 AM
 
2,739 posts, read 4,073,055 times
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I'm definitely pro abortion. There are way too many people on earth that should not exist. 100%pro.
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Old 04-08-2009, 08:19 AM
 
Location: Texas
8,668 posts, read 19,914,691 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post

I believe that people generally have a right to live their lives the way they please. They do not have that right when it interferes with the life of someone else, especially when it involves ending the life of someone else. I never said it was about ME...it is about the children.
Yep, this is IT--right here. This is what distinguishes the abortion argument from other debates. I do fully support people's right to live their lives as they see fit even if I would consider their choices destructive and/or immoral. But abortion involves a third person IMO. That's why those of us who view life this way can't just take a "blind eye" to it and say "whatever...."
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Old 04-08-2009, 08:28 AM
 
9,912 posts, read 12,183,162 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
You're right. I don't think you'll change your mind and neither will I.

That said...what you don't seem to understand is that, to me, it's not about people having a right to live their lives the way they see fit. It's about the fact that no one has the right to kill another human being. Period. It's not about my "belief system" or "my plan." It's about the fact that it infringes on another's right to life.

To you, there may be things worse than death. I suppose that to me there are as well. However, taking another person's life is IMO the absolute worst thing anyone could ever do.

I believe that people generally have a right to live their lives the way they please. They do not have that right when it interferes with the life of someone else, especially when it involves ending the life of someone else. I never said it was about ME...it is about the children.
And we don't agree on that either then.

It's not about the "right" to take another person's life it's about the fact that for some people at some point during their life they may be involved in the death of someone else either by accident or by design, either with malicious intent or with the very best of intentions.

I don't see someone aborting a fetus that they cannot afford to clothe, feed, house and care for as murder NOR do I see it as the worst thing they could do.

I don't see someone assisting a terminally ill patient to die as murder NOR do I see it as the worst thing they could do.

I don't see a soldier killing another soldier as murder NOR do I see it as the worst thing they could do.

I don't see a lot of deaths that have been attributed to the hand of someone else as murder NOR the worst thing a person could do OR the worst thing that could happen.

I'm well aware that you view life as a sanctity, some great thing that needs to be preserved and revered above all else. I just don't hold that view. It is what it is.
So yeah, I think I understand your views very well, I just don't agree with them is all.

To me the worst thing that someone could do was inflinct untold suffering on another human being either by concerted effort, or abject apathy, or complete disregard OR my personal favorite, "the best of intentions". Death is a part of life. It is also a release and by far not the worst thing that can happen.
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Old 04-08-2009, 12:05 PM
 
1,245 posts, read 1,228,561 times
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People who are against abortion are kind of contradicting themselves when they tell people to not have sex, what if you directly caused two people to not have sex, and therefor denied someone a life? There was a potential child in the making, just like after conception, but your actions denied that possibility. Its really no different. A group of cells being terminated isn't losing anything worth talking about other than the potential to becoming a human being, just like nothing is lost when two people decide to abstain except for the possibility of conception.
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Old 04-08-2009, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Eastern time zone
4,469 posts, read 6,160,640 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
I hadn't had my coffee yet when I posted that.

Protection should be encouraged but those using protection should understand that a child could still result. If you do not want a child, use contraceptives and then give the child up for adoption if necessary. If you absolutely refuse to allow a child to live in your uterus, THEN don't have sex at all.

Fortunately, you're neither my mommy, my priest, nor my congressperson.
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Old 04-08-2009, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Eastern time zone
4,469 posts, read 6,160,640 times
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Originally Posted by Aconite
And...again, we circle back to the idea of childbearing as an appropriate punishment for Bad Girls.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykay View Post
Actually, some people would consider childbearing a "reward" not a "punishment."
Well, Kaykay, I personally have a hard time seeing involuntary and ill-prepared motherhood as a "reward". I have four children of my own and three grandchildren, and have far too realistic an opinion of the responsibilities therein. Parenthood, IME, is about more than playing dress-up and parading them around in a buggy.
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Old 04-08-2009, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Eastern time zone
4,469 posts, read 6,160,640 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
Men are in the equation. If a man makes the same choice, he is just as repsonsible for the child after birth. Yet, the woman can simply choose to abort the child without him having a say. Whether the man is responsible for 18+ years is completely the woman's choice and he has no say. THAT is sexist to me.

No, they're not. The court can order men to pay support (assuming they can find him). But having a $200 withdrawn automatically from your paycheck (presuming you're one of the honorable guys who keeps the court apprised of your employment) is nowhere near "just as responsible". Absentee Dad isn't the one having to get up in the middle of the night with a colicky three-month-old, getting thrown up on by four-year-old twins who found the stash of Halloween candy, or trying to figure out how to buy a seven-year-old his first jock (or making him actually wear it on game day).

As for "sexist"...if my husband had been willing or able to endure the Pregnancy From Hell eleven years ago, IMO he would have been more than welcome to do so.
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Old 04-08-2009, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Eastern time zone
4,469 posts, read 6,160,640 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
I view abortion as murder. If someone came to me and said "I have the right to kill my 4 year old," I'd be very upset. Killing your unborn child is the same to me.

It's not all about YOU. This is the problem with the way our society has become...all "me, me, me." I'm concerned with the child's life.
With respect, it's not all about you, either.

Right now, the we're experiencing drought conditions, fragile ecosystems are being destroyed to make room for an expanding populace, unemployment is through the roof, social services are strained beyond breaking, and our infrastructure is crumbling. Meantime, tax revenues are decreasing.
Tell me again what greater societal good it serves to encourage Khadijah to have a baby at sixteen (because, yanno, there are such long lines of people willing to adopt brown-skinned children) instead of going to college and majoring in education or premed (or even medieval French literature), or joining the Navy, or working her way up from prep line to restaurant manager?
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Old 04-08-2009, 05:10 PM
 
Location: Eastern time zone
4,469 posts, read 6,160,640 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
I believe that people generally have a right to live their lives the way they please. They do not have that right when it interferes with the life of someone else, especially when it involves ending the life of someone else. I never said it was about ME...it is about the children.

Well, kinda. It's about the children unless they're conceived via rape or incest, in which case they're SOL, at least according to previous posts.
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Old 04-08-2009, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,763,873 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aconite View Post
Well, kinda. It's about the children unless they're conceived via rape or incest, in which case they're SOL.
In a rape case, the mother had no choice but to allow the child to live in her uterus. I don't want to force a woman to go through pregnancy and childbirth. Do I still think it's murder? Yes. But, at the same time, I do feel that the rights of the child need to be balanced with the rights of the mother.

In a situation other than rape, she engaged in an action knowing a child could result.
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