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THE MOTHER HAS NONE unless you disapprove of the father.
Yes...she had rights. She had the right to be on the pill, she had the right to take the morning after pill, she had the right to insist the man wear a condom, she had the right to abstain from sex altogether.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88
By the way, are you talking about "date rape", or only forced entry while under restraint under the threat or imposition of violence? Now you must either admit there is a difference of degree, and get all the feminists lined up against you, too, or else allow abortion for a girls misjudgment on a date with a known friend.
I'm not even going to touch this part of your post.
Yes...she had rights. She had the right to be on the pill, she had the right to take the morning after pill, she had the right to insist the man wear a condom, she had the right to abstain from sex altogether.
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That is not the right you're balancing. We're talking about today, April 20, 2009. Balance the rights. Tell me what the mother's are, and the fetus's and how you are "balancing" them. And you don't like Daddy, so throw baby in the dumpster. Right? What's that got to do with the rights of either of them?
Is a fetus's life worth saving, or isn't it. Yes or No.
That's one of the things that goes along with sex.
May go along with sex. It's not like every episode of sexual intercourse results in pregnancy.
FOR MEN TOO! So how about some harsher penalties for them. Clearly if she ends up pregnant he wasn't exactly knocking himself out to behave responsibly. If you believe that abortion is murder then it's about time we started charging the male DNA contributor with accessory if you're going to take a hard line approach.
I just don't understand why people can't seem to shift their focus on this.
Instead of villifying women and thinking of new and interesting ways to control them, how about we spend a little time on men.
For all the abortions that happen anywhere in the world there was a man involved at some point and yet time and time again it's all about what women should and shouldn't do. There are no harsh penalties for men, there's absolutely no expectation placed on men at all as far as I can see. Until there is I will always support the woman's right to autonomy over her own body.
Yes, after all, we are Americans. Let's start the discussion with punishment and harsh penalties, and work those up to a fever pitch, and then see if there are any other rational issues to be dealt with.
May go along with sex. It's not like every episode of sexual intercourse results in pregnancy.
FOR MEN TOO! So how about some harsher penalties for them. Clearly if she ends up pregnant he wasn't exactly knocking himself out to behave responsibly. If you believe that abortion is murder then it's about time we started charging the male DNA contributor with accessory if you're going to take a hard line approach.
I just don't understand why people can't seem to shift their focus on this.
Instead of villifying women and thinking of new and interesting ways to control them, how about we spend a little time on men.
For all the abortions that happen anywhere in the world there was a man involved at some point and yet time and time again it's all about what women should and shouldn't do. There are no harsh penalties for men, there's absolutely no expectation placed on men at all as far as I can see. Until there is I will always support the woman's right to autonomy over her own body.
If the man contributes to the act of "murder," he should be prosecuted.
The fact that he is a DNA contributor also makes him a possible contributor to the birth of a beautiful baby - something that many of us a view as a gift, not a curse. It does not make him an accessory to a murder unless he actually participates in the abortion.
The laws do make the man just as legally responsible after the child is born. You do understand that, correct? I'd have no problem with making the man 50% responsible for costs associated with pregnancy. Physically, there's no way to make him responsible. It's biology and it's not fair...I realize that. But, at the same time, it's a true injustice to correct a biological inequality with a legal inequality, which is what is currently done.
I find that this is entirely a woman's choice. The absolute gaul that men have to think that any man can tell a woman what to do with her body. Utterly ludicrous!
Well, it's not a question of "men" per se, telling women what to do with their bodies. It's a question of what we as a society decide is moral or immoral and what we do about it then legally. The issue with abortion as has been pointed out numerous times in this thread is that we have to consider whether or not the fetus represents a third person in the equation. Pro-life people such as myself contend that it does. (In case you're wondering and if it makes any difference, I AM a woman saying this.)
The relationship is biologically parasitic. I understand this, yet the fetus IS a life. You can't argue that. You can say it's not a person and I understand that argument. But it IS a life.
Prosecutors in my state have successfully filed charges against women who used drugs while pregnant. Not sure about alcohol, smoking, etc.
Did the women who used drugs go to jail for murder or for causing bodily harm to an individual? Or were they just penalized for possession and usage of illegal substances like any person would whether pregnant or not. If fetus has rights of an individual and there is a penalty for murder then a woman who fails to deliver the baby by doing the right things should be penalized as she would for murdering, maiming, or hurting already born child or an individual. A fetus is not a life, because it's not born yet, it's at the mercy of a woman carrying it and in her FULL CONTROL unless it is at the point where it can be taken out and hooked up to a machine. Is embryo a life?
The point I am trying to make is that woman is in full control until anyone finds out she is pregnant. She can self-abort and nobody would even know she ever was pregnant. I am pretty certain in old ages women used some sort of 'emergency contraception' and herbal medicines that would cause miscarriage.
If we enter the 'sci-fi scenario' where humans would reproduce purely by artificial means and the embryos would be incubated outside of our bodies then in that situation the argument that the fetus is a life is more valid and that is only after the incubation (intent to incubate it) as unused embryos that get discarded wouldn't be considered having rights.
It is true that this is not a perfect world. It's true that no matter how good we are at stressing the importance of abstinence/birth control use, some people will be stupid and end up with unplanned pregnancies.
However, that being said, I see this attitude of "oh well, it's gonna happen no matter what, so we should just let people do whatever they want, 'cause after all it's just a personal choice". I don't agree with that.
We saw the destructiveness of drunk driving, and we did something about it (drunk driving deaths are way down and auto accident deaths are down in general). We see the destructiveness of smoking, and we take measure to limit or discourage it (fewer people now smoke than in a very long time).
We can do the same with the abortion issue. You can be pro-choice and still think 1,200,000 abortions a year is a horror (the latest statistic from the pro-choice Alan Guttmacher Institute). You can be pro-choice and still not want any woman to be in the position of having an unplanned or unwanted preganancy.
So, yes, we can acknowledge that we will probably never have 0 abortions. That doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to reduce the number of unplanned pregnancies / abortions using a non-draconian approach.
The pro-life crowd needs to realize that simply making abortion illegal will not make it go away. The pro-choice crowd needs to admit that it's best to prevent the need for abortion, since few women want to be in the position of having an unwanted pregnancy in the first place.
Being pro-choice doesn't mean considering abortion as nothing more than a method of secondary contraception. Preventing unwanted pregnancy and family planning have always been the pillars of the pro-choice agenda. .
Did the women who used drugs go to jail for murder or for causing bodily harm to an individual? Or were they just penalized for possession and usage of illegal substances like any person would whether pregnant or not. If fetus has rights of an individual and there is a penalty for murder then a woman who fails to deliver the baby by doing the right things should be penalized as she would for murdering, maiming, or hurting already born child or an individual. A fetus is not a life, because it's not born yet, it's at the mercy of a woman carrying it and in her FULL CONTROL unless it is at the point where it can be taken out and hooked up to a machine. Is embryo a life?
TX law allows abortion but defines a fetus (and even an embryo) as a "person." If you kill a fetus/embryo, you can be prosecuted for murder unless it is done in a legal abortion procedure. The law provides an exception for that and that only.
These children didn't die...they were born as drug babies. The women were prosecuted for providing drugs to a minor, assault of a child, etc.
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Pro-choice, without question
