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Old 03-30-2009, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Columbus, OH
857 posts, read 1,419,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Our conclusions and perspectives about the world and our place in it place us humans into two distinct categories: Type A and Type B; [my terminology].
It would have been faster to just say type A= Western Religion's followers
B= agnostic/athiests
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Old 03-30-2009, 05:51 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,284,822 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Ice View Post
Type B personality here.

I have heard it said a couple of times that some American states have taken evolution off their school curriculum in favour of creationism, is this true? If so, how is this justified or even possible in a modern western society? It sounds like something you would only hear of happening in..........I can't think of an end to that sentence, I can't imagine any country that I would expect this from.
To be fair, I don't think any state has "taken evolution off their school curriculum in favour [are you a Brit or a Canadian? Just curious.] of creationism".

What has happened is that some districts have added references within their secondary curricula which either a) emphasize that Evolution is a 'theory', and/or b) raise the concept of "intelligent design" as a way of explaining evolutionary phenomena.
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Old 03-30-2009, 07:19 PM
 
Location: NSW, Australia
4,493 posts, read 6,305,242 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
To be fair, I don't think any state has "taken evolution off their school curriculum in favour [are you a Brit or a Canadian? Just curious.] of creationism".

What has happened is that some districts have added references within their secondary curricula which either a) emphasize that Evolution is a 'theory', and/or b) raise the concept of "intelligent design" as a way of explaining evolutionary phenomena.
I'm Australian actually. I only asked because I had read that a couple of times on here and I wanted to know the truth, I found it hard to believe that any government would approve that action.

I remember when I was at school they did address creationism (much to the disgust of my biology teacher) it consisted of one line. We wrote " the theory of creationism states that God created the world and everything in it." We were then instructed to rule a line and then write a new heading of evolution and what followed was an in depth look at all of the available knowledge and evidences of evolution. Evolution studies have progressed since then and it is now a certainty, not a theory in the everyday sense of the word because that implies doubt and there is none.

I've got no problem with the idea of intelligent design in conjunction with evolution, I don't find it necessary to believe that someone or something had to do it but I understand that a lot of people do need to believe that. I don't know if I agree with it being taught in school because it is a matter of religion and should be taught at the parents discretion and not labelled scientific fact imo. But ,I'm not American and it's not my problem I guess. I know that if I lived in any of these places I would be protesting strongly or moving my child to a school that emphasised known facts and not religion.

Last edited by Lady Ice; 03-30-2009 at 07:28 PM.. Reason: clarification
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Old 03-30-2009, 07:35 PM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,880 posts, read 15,169,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevergoingback View Post
Just thought we could use a thread on this subject. Rather than posting in the Pot thread. Please continue the "debate".
I personally feel that there is no debate. I think evolution is a fact.

man equates a day to mean 24 hours, and god created the earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th.

but no where do I ever see that in gods terms, that a day to him is the same as a day to us mortals.

who knows, maybe to god a day is 500,000,000 years.
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Old 03-31-2009, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,284,822 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Ice View Post
. I know that if I lived in any of these places I would be protesting strongly or moving my child to a school that emphasised known facts and not religion.
Thanks for the clarification.

Not to be obtuse or overly argumentative, but what about the "known fact" that many people believe so strongly in religion that it motivates behavior in many aspects of their lives, including but not limited to waging war, founding hospitals, establishing schools, and becoming politically active?

You would be hard-pressed, in fact, to find a place in the world where such people and motivations (or their every day manifestations) do not exist...
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Old 03-31-2009, 05:03 PM
 
Location: NSW, Australia
4,493 posts, read 6,305,242 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
Thanks for the clarification.

Not to be obtuse or overly argumentative, but what about the "known fact" that many people believe so strongly in religion that it motivates behavior in many aspects of their lives, including but not limited to waging war, founding hospitals, establishing schools, and becoming politically active?

You would be hard-pressed, in fact, to find a place in the world where such people and motivations (or their every day manifestations) do not exist...

I'm not apposed to churches having their own schools.Catholic schools are very good in general , I don't approve of children being taught incorrect science but ultimately it's the parents responsibility to ensure that for their child. In my country you don't see religiously motivated politics, certainly not as much as your country anyway. Occasionally a political figure (usually conservative) will try to put forward his/her view based on his/her religion, but generally it is not accepted in this country. Hospitals are state run (badly) and have nothing to do with religion, there are private hospitals but I have never associated them with religion, even if they are.

War , I believe, is largely driven by territorial or economic interests and religion is used merely as fuel for the fire. To incite the general population to support the war.

I think that there is no reason why religion can not (in theory) be held completely separate from all other matters of state. A free population should be just that, free. That includes freedom of religion,including the freedom to not be religious, as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else. To teach a religious point of view in school is indoctrination and goes against the very idea of a free society.
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Old 03-31-2009, 05:36 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,284,822 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Ice View Post
I think that there is no reason why religion can not (in theory) be held completely separate from all other matters of state. A free population should be just that, free. That includes freedom of religion,including the freedom to not be religious, as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else. To teach a religious point of view in school is indoctrination and goes against the very idea of a free society.
The "in theory" caveat is well-placed.

I appreciate your point of view in this discussion.
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Old 04-01-2009, 04:16 AM
 
2,255 posts, read 5,389,486 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Ice View Post
I think that there is no reason why religion can not (in theory) be held completely separate from all other matters of state. A free population should be just that, free. That includes freedom of religion,including the freedom to not be religious, as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else. To teach a religious point of view in school is indoctrination and goes against the very idea of a free society.
But in the end, it's removal will and is a necessary event that will happen and most likely take everyone, including atheists by surprise. It'll simply be interesting how all the major World News Pundits spin and rehash it's passing. I won't explain it here, but it will happen. It's actually been in the United Nations books for years. Just a matter of when.
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Old 04-01-2009, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Columbus, OH
857 posts, read 1,419,571 times
Reputation: 560
Religion is nothing but a bad hypothetical answer to a scientific question. When Religion was at its highest point, science was at its lowest, I do not think that this was a coincidence. And every time science proves anything, religion just redefines what their god could be. At first the world is flat and god created everything and he makes the sun rise and the rain fall. Then science proves how all these things actually occur, so religion pushes god farther out. Now he is not so much the creator in the spontaneous sense, but the designer. He foresees how all things will occur and designed the universe to put all these things in motion... gimme a break.

Religious people never have any proof of anything whatsoever, they always just try to find the holes in scientific theories. And until a scientist finds a real answer, religion puts the credit to God. Creationism is the dumbest thing that I have ever heard and the fact that people want to teach their children this nonsense makes me realize we, the general population of the USA, are not as smart as we should be. Does anybody notice that there is a direct correlation between a lack of education and religious affiliation???
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Old 04-01-2009, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 12,891,958 times
Reputation: 3767
Quote:
Originally Posted by ulnevrwalkalone View Post
Religion is nothing but a bad hypothetical answer to a scientific question. When Religion was at its highest point, science was at its lowest, I do not think that this was a coincidence. And every time science proves anything, religion just redefines what their god could be. At first the world is flat and god created everything and he makes the sun rise and the rain fall. Then science proves how all these things actually occur, so religion pushes god farther out. Now he is not so much the creator in the spontaneous sense, but the designer. He foresees how all things will occur and designed the universe to put all these things in motion... gimme a break.

Religious people never have any proof of anything whatsoever, they always just try to find the holes in scientific theories. And until a scientist finds a real answer, religion puts the credit to God. Creationism is the dumbest thing that I have ever heard and the fact that people want to teach their children this nonsense makes me realize we, the general population of the USA, are not as smart as we should be. Does anybody notice that there is a direct correlation between a lack of education and religious affiliation???
Well said, "unwa". I did, in fact, see some recent numbers correlating state insistence on some religious dogma and a significant accompanying reduction in test scores on math, science, skeptical thinking, etc. (Not sure where).

This would be only too logical and expected, as the last thing a set of dogmatic rules can tolerate is some kid in the back of the class raising his or her hand and saying "Yes, but, sir....could you better explain ________?"

Thus to my "status line" at the top of my posts: In ignorance there is joy. Perhaps I should add "and power."
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