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Old 05-11-2009, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,269,803 times
Reputation: 36087

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
Oh, come on -- since you are arguing about rape, you must have some idea of what rape is.

Gee, does a woman have a responsibility for being so damn attractive, she provokes a rapist in a dark alley?

Your desire to blame women for crimes perpetrated against them is disgusting.
I'm not arguing about rape, I am arguing about women who falsely accuse men of rape. Read the OP again, and let us know when you are ready, so we can continue.

I did not reference dark alleys, I referenced motel rooms.

I already acknowledged that it is the man's fault, not the woman's if he lets her handcuff him naked to a bed in a motel room and then takes his wallet and keys. I placed blame on a man for a crime perpetrated by a woman.

Please read along with us on these posts, and try to keep up.

 
Old 05-11-2009, 11:42 AM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 5,068,617 times
Reputation: 3853
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I'm not arguing about rape, I am arguing about women who falsely accuse men of rape. Read the OP.
Inasmuch as you are suggesting that forcing a woman to have sex should always be legal, it's entirely relevant to the OP to question what your definition of rape is. Because, if you believe that any man has the right to have sex with any woman he wants because she must have done something to indicate that she wants him to put his genitals in her (I guess, according to you, screaming "no" is just way too ambiguous), then you must believe that every female rape victim since the dawn of time has been a false accuser. Right?

So please, with cream and sugar on top -- define "rape". And if you believe that there is no such thing as rape, then say so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I already acknowledged that it is the man's fault, not the woman's if he lets her handcuff him naked to a bed in a motel room and then takes his wallet and keys. I placed blame on a man for a crime perpetrated by a woman. Please read the posts and try to keep up.
And I think it's idiotic -- gets us to a place where every victim of a crime is blamed for the crime. Letting oneself be handcuffed to a bed may be stupid, but it doesn't entitle the perpetrator to his wallet and keys; and if she takes them, it's still a crime.
 
Old 05-11-2009, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 35,205,885 times
Reputation: 4899
JTUR88 - I also would like to hear how YOU define "RAPE"
 
Old 05-11-2009, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 14,216,807 times
Reputation: 4563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday View Post
JTUR88 - I also would like to hear how YOU define "RAPE"
He probably defines rape with an exception if the woman "consents" to being within 5 miles of the man. It wouldn't surprise me.
 
Old 05-11-2009, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,269,803 times
Reputation: 36087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
Inasmuch as you are suggesting that forcing a woman to have sex should always be legal,.
Quote where I suggested it should ALWAYS be legal, and then maybe I'll read the rest of your post.

While you're at it, show me some evidence that if a woman says she said "No", she is ALWAYS telling the truth, which is the OP.
 
Old 05-11-2009, 11:53 AM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 5,068,617 times
Reputation: 3853
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Quote where I suggested it should ALWAYS be legal, and then maybe I'll read the rest of your post.
You didn't say it verbatim, but it is implicit in your statements that penetrating a woman against her will is not necessarily rape. I'm just trying to clarify what it is you fundamentally believe about rape -- which is why I am asking, REPEATEDLY, for your definition of it. And, the more you evade giving the definition, the stronger my suspicion that you do, in fact, believe that non-consensual sex should not carry any criminal penalties. I'll be happy to withdraw that if you provide a definition of rape that is consistent with all your prior statements. I'm ready with my drum-roll.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
While you're at it, show me some evidence that if a woman says she said "No", she is ALWAYS telling the truth, which is the OP.
I didn't make that claim. It is my opinion, however, that just because some women have lied about being raped, that doesn't presumptively make every rape victim a liar. The most recent FBI report places the rate of unfounded rape reports (and please note, an unfounded report isn't the same as a false report) at 8%; but of course, since your definition of rape (which I am hoping you'll provide shortly) seems different from the one employed by most other people and codified in the law, I suppose those numbers are meaningless to you. By the way, do you have any evidence that men who claim their victims asked to be raped are ALWAYS telling the truth?
 
Old 05-11-2009, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,269,803 times
Reputation: 36087
The definition of rape has been unequivocal and obvious for centuries:


rape

–noun
1. the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.

But, of course, you didn't want me to define rape at all. You want me to define force, duress, consent, a whole panoply of concepts that are disputed and debated in courts every day, and will be again tomorrow.. Sorry, I'm not Superman.
 
Old 05-11-2009, 12:04 PM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 5,068,617 times
Reputation: 3853
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
The definition of rape has been unequivocal and obvious for centuries:


rape

–noun
1. the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.

But, of course, you didn't want me to define rape at all. You want me to define force, duress, consent, a whole panoply of concepts that are disputed and debated in courts every day. Sorry, I'm not Superman.
No, jtur, that would have been a perfectly fine definition of rape, except I asked you to give one which is consistent with all your prior statements. The definition above isn't. You previously stated that a sexual act isn't rape even if accomplished through physical force or duress. So you must try again. Give me a definition of rape which incorporates all your ideas about when it a man should be permitted to force a woman to have sex.

(Just as an interesting aside, I note that under the definition you've given, it isn't rape to penetrate a woman who is unconscious, comatose, or paralyzed.)
 
Old 05-11-2009, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,269,803 times
Reputation: 36087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
No, jtur, that would have been a perfectly fine definition of rape, except I asked you to give one which is consistent with all your prior statements. The definition above isn't. You previously stated that a sexual act isn't rape even if accomplished through physical force or duress. So you must try again.
Yes it is. It is perfectly consistent with all my prior statements. No force or duress, no rape.

Show me the quote, where I stated what you said.
 
Old 05-11-2009, 12:15 PM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 5,068,617 times
Reputation: 3853
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Yes it is. It is perfectly consistent with all my prior statements. No force or duress, no rape.
So, a paralyzed woman can't be raped? What if a woman has, say, muscular dystrophy and can't move, so the rapist doesn't actually have to apply physical force? Is having muscular dystrophy tantamount to consent to sexual intercourse? Or do you believe consent isn't a prerequisite to sex being, you know, consensual?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Show me the quote, where I stated what you said.
Happy to do it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
So if a woman lets a man partly undress her or partly undresses herself, that gives the man the right to sodomize her even while she is screaming and pleading with him not to do it?
Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.
NOW -- please give me a definition of rape that is consistent with your idea that forcing a woman to have sex isn't necessarily rape.

Last edited by Redisca; 05-11-2009 at 12:25 PM..
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