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Old 06-29-2009, 11:32 AM
 
8,240 posts, read 14,899,006 times
Reputation: 3651

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I don't think it is reasonable to demand that people do anything that they are not capable of doing or can't afford to do. We already punish people plenty for being poor or incapable or disabled. What do you propose as the additional punishment to be added on for becoming parents without marriage, or ending their marital relationship when they have children? How about a $10,000 fine? That would help their kids, when they can't even afford to feed their kids in the first place. How do you 'demand' something, without any penalty for noncompliance? If a mother takes her kids to a battered woman's shelter, you 'demand' that she go back home?

You people just can't think of any way whatsoever to solve any of our social problems, except to line people up and punish them.
Well, we DEMAND that people not murder each other, wear clothes, pay taxes, register for the draft. I think that we can strongly encourage people to get and stay in a marriage (or civil union) if you prefer. We don't have to threaten jail time. We can modify our tax system so that if you take your child as a deduction, you have to be living with them, that sort of thing. Too many 'parents' (sperm/egg donors) do too little for their children and expect everyone else to pick up the slack for them. That's wrong for the children.
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Old 06-29-2009, 12:07 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,556,197 times
Reputation: 35864
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimimomx3 View Post
Well, we DEMAND that people not murder each other, wear clothes, pay taxes, register for the draft. I think that we can strongly encourage people to get and stay in a marriage (or civil union) if you prefer. We don't have to threaten jail time. We can modify our tax system so that if you take your child as a deduction, you have to be living with them, that sort of thing. Too many 'parents' (sperm/egg donors) do too little for their children and expect everyone else to pick up the slack for them. That's wrong for the children.
You know what? Making poor parents pay higher income tax penalties is wrong for the children, too. You still keep digging yourself deeper and deeper into the hole of "punishing the parents is the best thing we can do for their kids". Why not try to get over your zealous thirst for punishment and start thinking of common decency and human dignity?
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Old 06-29-2009, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,505 posts, read 49,557,510 times
Reputation: 24548
Seems to me the kid, by trying to control her parents, was being decent and civil. Hopefully, she will keep this with her despite her parent's lack of civility.
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Old 06-29-2009, 01:03 PM
 
8,240 posts, read 14,899,006 times
Reputation: 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
You know what? Making poor parents pay higher income tax penalties is wrong for the children, too. You still keep digging yourself deeper and deeper into the hole of "punishing the parents is the best thing we can do for their kids". Why not try to get over your zealous thirst for punishment and start thinking of common decency and human dignity?
I'm not 'digging myself' into anything. How sad that you want to give sperm and egg donors a pass when it comes to being responsible for their offspring. It may make your day to know that I think that abusive or neglectful parents should have their 'parental' rights terminated rather quickly. I think that professionally staffed, well run and strictly monitored orphanages are a much better alternative to leaving these children in horrible living conditions. How sad that you care more about loser adults than innocent children.
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Old 06-29-2009, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,236 posts, read 40,273,555 times
Reputation: 10915
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimimomx3 View Post
Well, we DEMAND that people not murder each other, wear clothes, pay taxes, register for the draft. I think that we can strongly encourage people to get and stay in a marriage (or civil union) if you prefer. We don't have to threaten jail time. We can modify our tax system so that if you take your child as a deduction, you have to be living with them, that sort of thing. Too many 'parents' (sperm/egg donors) do too little for their children and expect everyone else to pick up the slack for them. That's wrong for the children.
Not everyone plans to have children, so why do THEY need to get married? Like the T-shirt says, "...I didn't do anything wrong."
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Old 06-29-2009, 02:33 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,556,197 times
Reputation: 35864
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimimomx3 View Post
I think that professionally staffed, well run and strictly monitored orphanages are a much better alternative to leaving these children in horrible living conditions. .
About 15 million American children come from households where their parents cannot afford to feed them, and they receive free lunch at school. 15-million of the kids now in school come from households where their parents will fail to keep them in school long enough to graduate. Now, just how much do you think it will cost us to keep 15-million kids in your "professionally staffed, well run and strictly monitored orphanages"? You're proposing this to a nation that screams bloody murder if you just suggest that kids get to see a free doctor to write them an Rx when they are sick.

But thanks for your "family values" input, anyway.
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Old 06-29-2009, 04:58 PM
 
3,700 posts, read 3,026,594 times
Reputation: 10007
Unfortunately, we are far more interested in kicking ass around the globe to insure the outcome of political events, than caring about our own problems dealing with poverty. Whenever the subject of poverty comes up, some folk's run to the closet to get their rightious suit on.

It should come as no surprise that we have the highest rate of violence in all of the developed world, poverty and crime are proven to be connected. It would be almost impossible to sort out the different types of experiences that make up a persons point of view when considering poverty, that said, I think we need to just sit back and take a deep breath and study what is already out there, long term effects of a continious generational poverty are beginning to show up on the radar, yeah, you can preach the gospel of your own personal experience, but, you'd have to give in sooner or later to the bigger picture.

This holier than thou attitude from a huge number of American's only exacerbates the underlying effects of a hard core disbelief in the studies done through the years. In our country you don't really need to spend to much time doing the research, just use your own empirical knowledge, after all, who has the time to really READ something anyway?

The jury is in on poverty, and it's conclusions are not the least bit puzzling, the correlation between the lack of all things asocciated with, good family, good jobs, good schools, and poverty, are substantial. This has been demonstrated through the best studies, yes, I know that in today,s world we don't have to respect anyone of inteligence or anything that they do, your opinion is far weightier than that of Harvard researchers, isn't it?

when you do run into these folk's from the eternal abyss of ignorance and hopelessness we see it as an abberation of the daily routine we develop in the burbs. Not knowing how to address the immediate situation we usually write them off in disgust. When we turn on the radio, and blaring damnation of those who have been deemed to be lacking in responsibility is being shouted to the rooftops, we could very easily find ourselves in agreement, if for no other reason than it lets us off the hook as a community of skeptics. Tired, and lacking in the discipline needed to really understand the complexities of such problems, we wait, pointing fingers, and scolding, smug in the knowledge that we have done our part, now, we say to the poor, suck it up, I did....
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Old 06-29-2009, 07:44 PM
 
8,240 posts, read 14,899,006 times
Reputation: 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
About 15 million American children come from households where their parents cannot afford to feed them, and they receive free lunch at school. 15-million of the kids now in school come from households where their parents will fail to keep them in school long enough to graduate. Now, just how much do you think it will cost us to keep 15-million kids in your "professionally staffed, well run and strictly monitored orphanages"? You're proposing this to a nation that screams bloody murder if you just suggest that kids get to see a free doctor to write them an Rx when they are sick.

But thanks for your "family values" input, anyway.
If we get rid of Medicaid, AFDC and Social Security, and most of our wasteful, bloated government, we could orphanages for abused and neglected children. We could also have healthcare for children. The government is keeping people poor and helpless. The government has killed all 'family values' by making it easy for people to stop fending for themselves.
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Old 06-29-2009, 07:49 PM
 
8,240 posts, read 14,899,006 times
Reputation: 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber View Post
Unfortunately, we are far more interested in kicking ass around the globe to insure the outcome of political events, than caring about our own problems dealing with poverty. Whenever the subject of poverty comes up, some folk's run to the closet to get their rightious suit on.

It should come as no surprise that we have the highest rate of violence in all of the developed world, poverty and crime are proven to be connected. It would be almost impossible to sort out the different types of experiences that make up a persons point of view when considering poverty, that said, I think we need to just sit back and take a deep breath and study what is already out there, long term effects of a continious generational poverty are beginning to show up on the radar, yeah, you can preach the gospel of your own personal experience, but, you'd have to give in sooner or later to the bigger picture.

This holier than thou attitude from a huge number of American's only exacerbates the underlying effects of a hard core disbelief in the studies done through the years. In our country you don't really need to spend to much time doing the research, just use your own empirical knowledge, after all, who has the time to really READ something anyway?

The jury is in on poverty, and it's conclusions are not the least bit puzzling, the correlation between the lack of all things asocciated with, good family, good jobs, good schools, and poverty, are substantial. This has been demonstrated through the best studies, yes, I know that in today,s world we don't have to respect anyone of inteligence or anything that they do, your opinion is far weightier than that of Harvard researchers, isn't it?

when you do run into these folk's from the eternal abyss of ignorance and hopelessness we see it as an abberation of the daily routine we develop in the burbs. Not knowing how to address the immediate situation we usually write them off in disgust. When we turn on the radio, and blaring damnation of those who have been deemed to be lacking in responsibility is being shouted to the rooftops, we could very easily find ourselves in agreement, if for no other reason than it lets us off the hook as a community of skeptics. Tired, and lacking in the discipline needed to really understand the complexities of such problems, we wait, pointing fingers, and scolding, smug in the knowledge that we have done our part, now, we say to the poor, suck it up, I did....
Economic success IS possible in the US. Ask the national merit scholars who are first generation Americans, whose parents came here with no English, nothing but the shirt on their backs. Their children have become doctors, lawyers, engineers, business owners. They do this, mostly, without government handouts. They do it by working hard, in any kind of menial job they can. They save every penny. They stick together. They don't buy junk, or get their nails done, or have kids they can't afford. They study themselves to death and make progress. Now...why can't 'poor Americans' do the same??
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Old 06-29-2009, 07:54 PM
 
Location: Monroe, Louisiana
887 posts, read 2,613,023 times
Reputation: 529
MinimomX3.. you are spot on. I repped you.

Why not trade up to an X5? You deserve it!
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