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Old 03-24-2009, 04:55 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,755,085 times
Reputation: 2524

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ulnevrwalkalone View Post
This is just wrong on every account, and it disgusts me that people are fine with just saying "if they are consenting adults". Would any of you be fine if it was someone you knew?? I can honestly say I would not allow anyone I knew to go through with any form of incest be it parent/child or sibling. Its wrong, and it will always lead to a bad situation.
What I take from this is that you want to regulate behavior "disgust" basis, correct?

Also, it is wrong? What makes it wrong in your opinion? How does that "wrong" affect you? Does it affect your check when you get paid?
Does it make your dinner taste different? Does it make bruises appear on your body or make you sick with let us say tuberculosis or make you blind because a couple or that type exists?

In order to regulate behavior you need to show what is the harm to others and to society. What is the harm? Please expand.

In previous message I stated my dislike for that behavior but I am not going to let my emotions or aversion control others behavior if I do not see the harm done and the interference to others rights.

Bottom line, what makes it wrong?

You have a great day.
El Amigo

 
Old 03-24-2009, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,763,873 times
Reputation: 4539
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
What I take from this is that you want to regulate behavior "disgust" basis, correct?

Also, it is wrong? What makes it wrong in your opinion? How does that "wrong" affect you? Does it affect your check when you get paid?
Does it make your dinner taste different? Does it make bruises appear on your body or make you sick with let us say tuberculosis or make you blind because a couple or that type exists?

In order to regulate behavior you need to show what is the harm to others and to society. What is the harm? Please expand.

In previous message I stated my dislike for that behavior but I am not going to let my emotions or aversion control others behavior if I do not see the harm done and the interference to others rights.

Bottom line, what makes it wrong?

You have a great day.
El Amigo
Do you not see that there are other issues here?

1. Genetic issues affecting any child who could result from the relationship

2. Diseases passed down to or through any child who could result from the relationship

3. Most importantly, the issue of "consent." It is extremely difficult for me to conceive of a 20 year old girl (as was mentioned in this case) having the capacity to consent to sex with her 40+ year old father. We all know that there is a power difference. Even if she had been 30 or 40, he controlled her for 18 years legally. Someone who has that much power over another person for that long has a far, far, far greater chance of being able to manipulate the person later on and regain that power....even when we are talking about a rational, mature adult.
 
Old 03-24-2009, 05:05 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,538,289 times
Reputation: 35864
Australian authorities estimate that 15-20 percent of all individual participate in an incestuous relationship at some time in their lives. I see no reason to believe that the circumstances in Texas are significantly different from that. It is of absolutely no value to declare that some 3-4 million Texans are committing a crime that is deserving of a 20-year prison sentence. With prison inmates outumbering prisoners about 2:1, vigorous enforcement would result in 4 million Texans in prison for incest, 8 million Texans guarding them, and less than half the state's population engaged in other activities for their livelihood.

I am really at a loss to understand how, after thousands of years of intellectual development, human beings have come only this far.
 
Old 03-24-2009, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,763,873 times
Reputation: 4539
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Australian authorities estimate that 15-20 percent of all individual participate in an incestuous relationship at some time in their lives. I see no reason to believe that the circumstances in Texas are significantly different from that. It is of absolutely no value to declare that some 3-4 million Texans are committing a crime that is deserving of a 20-year prison sentence. With prison inmates outumbering prisoners about 2:1, vigorous enforcement would result in 4 million Texans in prison for incest, 8 million Texans guarding them, and less than half the state's population engaged in other activities for their livelihood.

I am really at a loss to understand how, after thousands of years of intellectual development, human beings have come only this far.
Your post is an incoherent rambling of nonsense.

You say that "prison inmates outnumber prisoners about 2:1" and "8 million Texans" would guard the 4 million in prison....so you should have said guards outnumber prisoners or guards outnumber prison inmates. And, anyway, that's wrong to say the least. The number of prison guards per inmate...even when you calculate the total number of guards from all the shifts is FAR less than 1. I think it's something like 5-10 inmates per guard.

And then you suggest that 15%-20% of Texans engage in these relationships. Could you please delete that? Please. It makes me feel embarassed to see something like that. The vast majority of us (well over 99% I'd strongly guess) are not like that. Someone will come on here and say how backwards we are in our great state and how we're all f***ing our daughters...but that could not be farther from the truth and you know it.

If you don't like the law, you are free to go to those other states or countries you mentioned and do as you please.

You call engaging in this type of behavior with your own daughter (or with your son or your parent) something that is a sign of a highly intellectually-developed society? Wow...I'd actually call that a very backwards society.

Like it or not, our country guarantees us certain basic freedoms and rights, but it also guarantees us also something called civilization. I'll give up a FEW "freedoms" in favor of civilization.

Last edited by afoigrokerkok; 03-24-2009 at 07:31 PM..
 
Old 03-24-2009, 08:06 PM
 
389 posts, read 1,789,114 times
Reputation: 184
like father like daughter. both sick in the head. they know their disgusting affair might produce a retard so they went safe and made sure neither of them will produce an offspring. how can u lust your own flesh and blood? yuck.
 
Old 03-24-2009, 10:24 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,538,289 times
Reputation: 35864
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
Your post is an incoherent rambling of nonsense.

You say that "prison inmates outnumber prisoners about 2:1" and "8 million Texans" would guard the 4 million in prison....so you should have said guards outnumber prisoners or guards outnumber prison inmates. And, anyway, that's wrong to say the least. The number of prison guards per inmate...even when you calculate the total number of guards from all the shifts is FAR less than 1. I think it's something like 5-10 inmates per guard.

And then you suggest that 15%-20% of Texans engage in these relationships. Could you please delete that? Please. It makes me feel embarassed to see something like that. The vast majority of us (well over 99% I'd strongly guess) are not like that. Someone will come on here and say how backwards we are in our great state and how we're all f***ing our daughters...but that could not be farther from the truth and you know it.

If you don't like the law, you are free to go to those other states or countries you mentioned and do as you please.

You call engaging in this type of behavior with your own daughter (or with your son or your parent) something that is a sign of a highly intellectually-developed society? Wow...I'd actually call that a very backwards society.

Like it or not, our country guarantees us certain basic freedoms and rights, but it also guarantees us also something called civilization. I'll give up a FEW "freedoms" in favor of civilization.

I invite you to produce more reliable statistics on how many persons in Texas or any other state take part in incestuous relationships. I also invite you so show compelling evidence that Texans are less likely than Australians to be incestuous. Even the most conservative estimates in the US admit there are 5-10 million children, plus another 5-10 million adults, plus an unknown number of couples neither of whom are children.

The number of personnel in law enforcement, courts and corrections in the USA (2.3-million) is larger than the number of prison inmates, who are serving, on average, much shorter terms. 4 million inmates condemned to 20 year sentences would commit the state to that many for a full 20 years,, thus requiring substantially more than 5 million Texans to arrest, gather evidence, prosecute, and administer the corrections system for them. You need to take into account the manpower necessary to prove all of them guilty, with absolutely no corroborating witnesses or physical evidence. In any case, the number in Texas is certainly a million, and you will not rest well until every one of them is in the state penitentiary where they belong.

There are countless cases of teenagers having incestuous relationships with each other, not to mention pre-teens playing doctor. No doubt you are licking your lips awaiting their attaining the age of 18, when all these teenagers can be locked away for 20 years in the state penitentiary. No doubt you have some excellent ideas about how you can gather this evidence of who they are. Just throw them all into dungeons and drop some food to them every day or two, and we won't need nearly as many guards. That's what they deserve, isn't it?
 
Old 03-24-2009, 10:56 PM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
3,196 posts, read 4,716,018 times
Reputation: 976
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
If you don't like the law, you are free to go to those other states or countries you mentioned and do as you please.
.
I thought in the USA we were encouraged to work to change the law if we don't like it....am I wrong?
 
Old 03-24-2009, 11:26 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,516,394 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by jtur88
Quote:
I invite you to produce more reliable statistics on how many persons in Texas or any other state take part in incestuous relationships. I also invite you so show compelling evidence that Texans are less likely than Australians to be incestuous. Even the most conservative estimates in the US admit there are 5-10 million children, plus another 5-10 million adults, plus an unknown number of couples neither of whom are children.
Numbers or statistics are irrelevant.
The point is that there are Americans who want to make incest legal because they believe that when there is no harm there is no fault, right?
I mean where's the harm if a father wants to love his daughter in the biblical sense?
Or where a son wants to love his mother in the biblical sense?
There are many (would-be) philosophers on this board who think that if everything is done between consenting adults there is no harm.
I would invite these (would-be) philosophers who only approach this topic as a philosophical exercise to talk to people who're in treatment just because they have experienced something like this.

Legalising incest (even when it only is between adults) would be the return to earlier days when Christians believed that a women should obey her husband in all things.
In Europe some people find the Islam religion backward because some hardcore Muslims believe that women have no rights and if ya ask me I see no difference between those Muslims and American Christians who want to legalise incest because the Bible states that children should honour and obey their parents in all things.
Not only the little children, but also the adult ones.

I guess there is not much difference between having no freedom and having too much freedom.
If you give the parents too much freedom their children will end up having no freedom at all, just like in those Muslim countries where women have no rights at all, because their men ended up with all the rights.
In America there are sects who practise horrible things because their holy text tells them it is 'normal' and who say horrible things because they believe their prophet said the same thing.
They hide behind the freedom of religion and the freedom of speech even when it is obvious that Americans can't do and say whatever they want.

Will incest be the next thing to hide behind the right of freedom of religion?
It is obvious that Adam and Eve practised incest because Eve is born out of Adam.
And if Adam and Eve committed incest and God allowed it, it can’t be that wrong can it?
 
Old 03-25-2009, 08:20 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,763,873 times
Reputation: 4539
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I invite you to produce more reliable statistics on how many persons in Texas or any other state take part in incestuous relationships. I also invite you so show compelling evidence that Texans are less likely than Australians to be incestuous. Even the most conservative estimates in the US admit there are 5-10 million children, plus another 5-10 million adults, plus an unknown number of couples neither of whom are children.

The number of personnel in law enforcement, courts and corrections in the USA (2.3-million) is larger than the number of prison inmates, who are serving, on average, much shorter terms. 4 million inmates condemned to 20 year sentences would commit the state to that many for a full 20 years,, thus requiring substantially more than 5 million Texans to arrest, gather evidence, prosecute, and administer the corrections system for them. You need to take into account the manpower necessary to prove all of them guilty, with absolutely no corroborating witnesses or physical evidence. In any case, the number in Texas is certainly a million, and you will not rest well until every one of them is in the state penitentiary where they belong.

There are countless cases of teenagers having incestuous relationships with each other, not to mention pre-teens playing doctor. No doubt you are licking your lips awaiting their attaining the age of 18, when all these teenagers can be locked away for 20 years in the state penitentiary. No doubt you have some excellent ideas about how you can gather this evidence of who they are. Just throw them all into dungeons and drop some food to them every day or two, and we won't need nearly as many guards. That's what they deserve, isn't it?
You don't seem to understand a few things. The penalty is only proposed to be increased for parent/child incest. That is what I assumed you were referring to in your post since you were talking about the Texas bill. I was not talking about brother/sister or cousin incest. The bill provides that the maximum penalty for any other incest will remain at 10 years.

I'm not licking my lips and waiting for anything and I don't have any "excellent ideas" about anything. There are simply some things that need to be against the law. Period.

You don't seem to know Texas law very well, BTW, because at the age of 17, not 18, they are automatically prosecuted as an adult and sent to adult prison.

I don't think that prisons should be dungeons where food is thrown to them once or twice a day. I never said that, so don't put words in my mouth. I was merely stating that your information about the number of guards and ratio to prisoners is very, very wrong. I'm not suggesting a lower number of guards - the lower number of guards is reality.

You also don't seem to realize that very few people are sentenced to the maximum for any crime and also that we have things called probation and parole. The total number of people involved in corrections may be 2.3 million but that includes everyone who works in courts, jails, probation, parole, etc. not just those who work in prisons. There are far more than 2.3 million people involved in the system when you look at the entire system....not just prisoners.
 
Old 03-25-2009, 08:23 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,763,873 times
Reputation: 4539
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcashley View Post
I thought in the USA we were encouraged to work to change the law if we don't like it....am I wrong?
Yes we are. But I think it would be more prudent to work on gambling, prostitution, and pot before incest if you truly want to eliminate all crimes you think are "victimless."
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