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Old 02-04-2010, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
12,900 posts, read 18,450,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cap1717 View Post
Ok, here it is. . . the REAL TRUTH!

Sound is a phenomena that occurs when vibrations, carried by air, meet the receptical (ear) designed to detect them. Without BOTH the vibrations and the ear, the thing we call sound cannot exist!
That's starting to sound like quantum mechanics.
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Old 02-04-2010, 10:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
Sound, like light, can exist without any mechanical or biological receptor. If you plug your ears does the sound of jackhammers cease? If you cover your eyes does the light stop? Sound requires a media. The sun is a very loud sonic source but cannot be heard because the vacuum of space prevents transmission of the vibrations to earth. Light does not require any media for transmission hence we can see the sun. Sound and light exist so long as they are generated.

So if a tree falls in the forest and is not heard it still makes a sound.
Again, our ability to see light or whatever, as I understand it, is completely neurochemical. It's an interpretation of the vis region of the EMS, not the vis EMS itself. Light waves/energy stimulate photo-receptors, which sets off a cascade of action in a human. It's the same for our entire sensory experience. Reliable, sure, real time? Not so much.

We are able to detect UV, for example, with instrumentation, but we don't consider peaks at 250nm to be waves, rather an easy to understand iterpretation. OTOH, I could be wrong lol.
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Old 02-04-2010, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Richardson, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunwyn View Post
In physics, sound is still an interpretation of a wave. If that's not the case, can you share a helpful link?
Well, yes we interpret the sound, if we happen to hear it. In Physics, the sound IS the vibration of particles of a medium as it propogates through the medium in the form of waves, without the benefit of necessarily being heard. Maybe you are thinking of "pitch." That is what we percieve the frequency of a sound wave. Both definitions are correct, in their respective fields.
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Old 02-04-2010, 02:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanTerra View Post
Well, yes we interpret the sound, if we happen to hear it. In Physics, the sound IS the vibration of particles of a medium as it propogates through the medium in the form of waves, without the benefit of necessarily being heard. Maybe you are thinking of "pitch." That is what we percieve the frequency of a sound wave. Both definitions are correct, in their respective fields.
That makes more sense to me. I'm not sure if I'm thinking about pitch, but I am leaning towards the sensation/perception side. And I was not differentiating sound from being heard.
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Old 02-04-2010, 02:55 PM
 
Location: Richardson, TX
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Originally Posted by Braunwyn View Post
That makes more sense to me. I'm not sure if I'm thinking about pitch, but I am leaning towards the sensation/perception side. And I was not differentiating sound from being heard.

I know, you were not differentiating but rather, including it, if I read you right. That's the detecting requirement of sound in the field of psychology. That's why I added the winkie. Hearing is just how we can organically detect sound. I remember in physics, in the acoustics section, having this discussion about the tree falling, now this is back in the late '70s, but that was the thrust of the discussion, and how the answer is yes and no.
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Old 02-04-2010, 05:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanTerra View Post
I know, you were not differentiating but rather, including it, if I read you right. That's the detecting requirement of sound in the field of psychology. That's why I added the winkie. Hearing is just how we can organically detect sound. I remember in physics, in the acoustics section, having this discussion about the tree falling, now this is back in the late '70s, but that was the thrust of the discussion, and how the answer is yes and no.
I'm not sure what it has to do with psychology, when it's really a matter of physiology. Some areas of psych do address neurobiology, but minimally. Any way, you make an excellent point all around. Next question, is this limited to sound waves? I can't imagine an application to the EMS.
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Old 02-04-2010, 05:56 PM
 
Location: Richardson, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunwyn View Post
I'm not sure what it has to do with psychology, when it's really a matter of physiology. Some areas of psych do address neurobiology, but minimally. Any way, you make an excellent point all around. Next question, is this limited to sound waves? I can't imagine an application to the EMS.
This was a long time ago, you may be right about that. Either way, it's anthropocentric, it was defined in the sense that a listener had to be involved before what you heard, or detected through a device, could be defined as sound - a reveiver of sorts. I believe it would be the same. EMS is form of energy that exists whther one is present to feel or see it or not. We interpret different wavelengths as colors in the visible spectrum, as pitch in frequency of sound waves. Is that what you mean?

Here is a question. If you were in a forest and a tree fell, would you rather be with Ginger, or Mary Anne?
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Old 02-04-2010, 06:40 PM
 
19,081 posts, read 21,198,868 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanTerra View Post
This was a long time ago, you may be right about that. Either way, it's anthropocentric, it was defined in the sense that a listener had to be involved before what you heard, or detected through a device, could be defined as sound - a reveiver of sorts. I believe it would be the same. EMS is form of energy that exists whther one is present to feel or see it or not. We interpret different wavelengths as colors in the visible spectrum, as pitch in frequency of sound waves. Is that what you mean?
I took a sensation and perception class in college where I was introduced to the EMS. Sure, the energy exists regardless if someone is present or not, but it really is a grand and complicated interpretation. That book (not the class) blew my mind a bit. As best as I understand it, it's not that much different from instrumentation. For example, I work with HPLC/UV every day. We have ways of detecting UV, but that doesn't mean the peaks I review are actual UV. They're a representation of UV. Pretty much everything we experience is a representation of something else. It's all once (and then some) removed.

Quote:
Here is a question. If you were in a forest and a tree fell, would you rather be with Ginger, or Mary Anne?
Both lol
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Old 02-05-2010, 05:53 AM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
3,088 posts, read 4,544,006 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1751texan View Post
Thats not the exact or whole truth...There are "sounds" out of our hearing range. yet other species can "hear" them. Do they not exist, even though an "ear" cant detect them?

Remember some species detect vibrations by various body parts...

...Some bats use ultrasound for echo location while in flight. Dogs are able to hear ultrasound, which is the principle of "silent" dog whistles. Snakes sense infrasound through their bellies, and whales, giraffes, and elephants use it for communication. As with other vertebrates, fish have an inner ear to detect sound, although through the medium of water.


...
did I specify that the the "ear" must be human? I think not. You are correct however that some species detect vibration by other methods. Humans can do this too, of course. have you ever held a stringed instrument while other music is being played in the room. . . the strings will exhibit a "sympathetic" vibration. . . not audible, to my ear, but easily detected by my hand, which is why I would call it "vibration" rather than sound.
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Old 02-05-2010, 06:18 AM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
3,088 posts, read 4,544,006 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
That's starting to sound like quantum mechanics.
gosh, thanks! fact is, the science of the very small is incredibly intersting to me. . . quantum mechanics, physics, etc. . . .I doubt there are enough knowledgable folk on this forum to get a discussion started, however. . . too bad.
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