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Old 09-02-2010, 06:52 AM
 
48,893 posts, read 39,381,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
Morality has not played a big part. If it did, such institutions would have vanished. I think I have said this before, but I will say it again. Slavery and colonialism were all about one thing: money. It is like my father told me "The love of money is the root of all evil".
In the USA, rum came from sugar cane chopped and picked by slaves. Cotton was sent to the textile mills, the same cotton picked by slaves. Money was made in shipbuilding, and many of those ships transported slaves.

Belgian chocolate was made from cacao from the Congo, which was a conoly of Belgium at one point. In Belguim, little chocolate hands were made from this very chocolate. In the Congo(then known as Belgian Congo), real people were getting their real hands chopped off. The reason? The local population was being forced to work. If you didn't work, a punishment for it was getting your limbs dismembered. If one wanted to get rid of such an institution, one would have to stop using those products. You have to hit the companies where it hurts, in their pocketbook.

Slavery was not ended for moral reasons. I agree with you on that. Colonialism was not ended in Africa for moral reasons for the most part. It was ended because some places felt there was no "economic" need for it, not for moral reasons.
Slavery hasn't ended in Africa...nor in the US for that matter. Not as widespread and illegal (at least in the US) but it's still out there.

I would disagree that it ended due to a economic and not moral reasons. There were a number of countries pressing the US to end slavery and the church is fairly powerful especially back in the day.

Heck, look at prohibition and other drives in the US launched for moral reasons despite huge economic costs. (War on drugs?)

 
Old 09-02-2010, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Orlando, Florida
43,858 posts, read 43,564,164 times
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Greed usually trumps Morality...whether it is a slave issue or anything else pertaining to money or power. Slaves, whatever country or decade, have always been the victims. I think the only reparation though is for consumers to refuse to buy products that are obtained through slavery and unfair work standards. But many of us won't because our greed trumps morality also. This is why we are willing to purchase items made in Asian countries by people who may as well be slaves. In the end, we are just as guilty...myself included. I'm not sure we have room to talk or point fingers at people who basically decided slavery was an economic advantage to them.
 
Old 09-03-2010, 06:50 AM
 
48,893 posts, read 39,381,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GloryB View Post
Greed usually trumps Morality...whether it is a slave issue or anything else pertaining to money or power. Slaves, whatever country or decade, have always been the victims. I think the only reparation though is for consumers to refuse to buy products that are obtained through slavery and unfair work standards. But many of us won't because our greed trumps morality also. This is why we are willing to purchase items made in Asian countries by people who may as well be slaves. In the end, we are just as guilty...myself included. I'm not sure we have room to talk or point fingers at people who basically decided slavery was an economic advantage to them.
Good points, it's hard to know sometimes.

There was a massage place a mile from my house and I have really tight shoulders and was looking for a place to go. However, it looked kinda "skeezy" so I never went in. They were busted about 3 months later and turns out they were using Chinese sex slaves.

Fortunately the scumbags running the joint are facing life or potentially the death penalty for thier actions.
 
Old 09-03-2010, 09:32 AM
 
44,564 posts, read 43,103,689 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Good points, it's hard to know sometimes.

There was a massage place a mile from my house and I have really tight shoulders and was looking for a place to go. However, it looked kinda "skeezy" so I never went in. They were busted about 3 months later and turns out they were using Chinese sex slaves.

Fortunately the scumbags running the joint are facing life or potentially the death penalty for thier actions.
It is very hard to tell when immoral things are happening. Many cases it is done under a guise, so you can never tell.
 
Old 09-03-2010, 09:45 AM
 
44,564 posts, read 43,103,689 times
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I used colonialism and slavery in the same sentence in referring specifically to Africa for a reason. I read a book about some issues regarding the African-American community. I read a part about slavery and colonialism in Africa. It coined this question for me. There was an argument made between the time of Africa's slow decline and the Transatlantic slave trade. I started thinking that the manpower leaving Africa might have been drained. This also happened as colonialism started to occur in some parts of Africa. I am thinking that the decline might have been due to slavery/colonialism in this sense. When the Transatlantic slave trade occurred, you never know who could have been taken out of Africa. In many cases, warriors, artisans, craftsmen, and other types of persons making important contributions to the societies of their residence. Colonialism also was a factor because as I said before, it was done for the benefit of the coloniser, not the colonised. Alot of wealth was taken out, but very little was put back in for the most part.
 
Old 09-03-2010, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
14,022 posts, read 16,943,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
I used colonialism and slavery in the same sentence in referring specifically to Africa for a reason. I read a book about some issues regarding the African-American community. I read a part about slavery and colonialism in Africa. It coined this question for me. There was an argument made between the time of Africa's slow decline and the Transatlantic slave trade. I started thinking that the manpower leaving Africa might have been drained. This also happened as colonialism started to occur in some parts of Africa. I am thinking that the decline might have been due to slavery/colonialism in this sense. When the Transatlantic slave trade occurred, you never know who could have been taken out of Africa. In many cases, warriors, artisans, craftsmen, and other types of persons making important contributions to the societies of their residence. Colonialism also was a factor because as I said before, it was done for the benefit of the coloniser, not the colonised. Alot of wealth was taken out, but very little was put back in for the most part.
Good points, and very rational. I don't think any thinking person, in this day and age, would claim that colonialism, in general, was good for those who were colonized.
 
Old 09-03-2010, 11:05 AM
 
44,564 posts, read 43,103,689 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
Good points, and very rational. I don't think any thinking person, in this day and age, would claim that colonialism, in general, was good for those who were colonized.
No rational person would claim that it was a good thing for the colonized. Fact is, there are many people who will argue that it was a good thing. There are those out there who claim that Africans are not fit to rule themselves. There is even a thread about that: http://www.city-data.com/forum/world...d-failure.html
 
Old 09-03-2010, 08:04 PM
 
48,893 posts, read 39,381,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
Good points, and very rational. I don't think any thinking person, in this day and age, would claim that colonialism, in general, was good for those who were colonized.
Depends upon how you look at things I guess.

Yes, if you take a vacuum vision of things then yeah, it's great to be left alone but that means that existing practices (cannibalism etc.) are not replaced.

I think many people here are taking romantic versions of events because basically, human society is just one big series of stronger cultures preying upon weaker.

Heck, in this very thread we have people lamenting the end of the aztecs and incas to collonialism when OTHER native peoples no doubt cheered the event.

I just think people have an incomplete or limited view when decrying colonialism which in reality is just another form of cultural and genetic invasion which has gone on for 100,000 years.

P.S. If you have a serious problem with this then you should have a major problem with the latino invasion of north america....perspective is everything after all.
 
Old 09-03-2010, 10:14 PM
 
44,564 posts, read 43,103,689 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Depends upon how you look at things I guess.

Yes, if you take a vacuum vision of things then yeah, it's great to be left alone but that means that existing practices (cannibalism etc.) are not replaced.

I think many people here are taking romantic versions of events because basically, human society is just one big series of stronger cultures preying upon weaker.

Heck, in this very thread we have people lamenting the end of the aztecs and incas to collonialism when OTHER native peoples no doubt cheered the event.

I just think people have an incomplete or limited view when decrying colonialism which in reality is just another form of cultural and genetic invasion which has gone on for 100,000 years.

P.S. If you have a serious problem with this then you should have a major problem with the latino invasion of north america....perspective is everything after all.
Well, you haven't understood my point. Any benefit that came from colonialism was happenstance. Colonialism about controlling someone else for the benefit of self, rather than the colonised. I look at Africa and feel that colonialism was not a good thing.
 
Old 09-04-2010, 02:29 AM
 
221 posts, read 307,908 times
Reputation: 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
Morality has not played a big part. If it did, such institutions would have vanished. I think I have said this before, but I will say it again. Slavery and colonialism were all about one thing: money. It is like my father told me "The love of money is the root of all evil".
In the USA, rum came from sugar cane chopped and picked by slaves. Cotton was sent to the textile mills, the same cotton picked by slaves. Money was made in shipbuilding, and many of those ships transported slaves.

Belgian chocolate was made from cacao from the Congo, which was a conoly of Belgium at one point. In Belguim, little chocolate hands were made from this very chocolate. In the Congo(then known as Belgian Congo), real people were getting their real hands chopped off. The reason? The local population was being forced to work. If you didn't work, a punishment for it was getting your limbs dismembered. If one wanted to get rid of such an institution, one would have to stop using those products. You have to hit the companies where it hurts, in their pocketbook.

Slavery was not ended for moral reasons. I agree with you on that. Colonialism was not ended in Africa for moral reasons for the most part. It was ended because some places felt there was no "economic" need for it, not for moral reasons.
I try hard not to patronize african products. But it's really difficult. Major manufacturers source from where ever and pool the commodities. I try to vote with my wallet against africa and african slavery... well let me illustrate with some examples.

Cocao as you mention was indigenous to South America originally. Now 66% of it comes from africa. And you can't tell which came from where. Only choice... never eat chocolate... That wipes out a lot of the grocery store.

Acacia... also known as Senegal Gum, in a bazillion products. Same story...

Mahogany, and a dozen other woods. Many used to be "New World", now grown on nurseries in africa... again, only choice when you can't identify is "nevery buy any"...

BMW 3 Series and Mercedes C Class... Pretoria South Africa and New London South Africa respectively... well no german cars for me... I believe Toyota and other japanese manufacturers are considering the same. The AGOA makes it profitable to ship the parts to africa for assembly, then ship the finished car to the U.S. They let a higher number of units into the country if enough of the work is done in africa.

Oil, itself, that a bazillion things run or or are manufactered from... Nigeria, Saudi, and so on.

It's disgusting, but it's hard to avoid.
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