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Old 04-28-2009, 12:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ulnevrwalkalone View Post
Oh we allow some of the worst from cultures too, Klan members and Neo-Nazis anyone?? But for better or worse America is multicultural and I love it.

And I don't think being multicultural means you have to take everything from every culture. Culture is supposed to be all that is good and creative from a given society. Things like language or arts be it culinary, musical, theatrical etc. Allow the best from every society to be maintained. But they have to also become part of American culture too, if only in following our laws.

The retarded or racist comment was in reference to anyone arguing against multiculturalism in America.
I wasn't aware we'd "imported" the Ku Klux Klan from elsewhere....however, I'll take your word for that one. "Neo-nazis"? As opposed to "nazis"? Not sure where they originated, either.

So culture is supposed to be "all that's good" from a society, but none of the "bad"? Guess that's news to me, too. "Good", and "bad" by whose measure?

I guess I didn't realize how 'multicultural' we were.....and here, I was thinking it was something we had to "push". Take ME for example....I'm already a veritable 'walking United Nations', and I didn't even realize it.

I'm a Catholic, which obviously means I'm OK with The Mafia, AND with most illegal immigrants, since we share that religion in common.

My wife is an Indian, so THAT puts me in the clear...because instead of killing all the Indians, like MOST Americans did, I MARRIED them all. (And since SOME Indians practiced human sacrifice, I suppose THAT has its good points, too. They wouldn't have DONE it if it wasn't 'good'..right?)..

I speak Spanish, which of course means I'm an open-borders advocate...(many Spanish-speakers feel that would be a 'good' thing)

I drive a Toyota pickup, which absolves me of the 'sin' of my fellow Americans, who locked up Japanese-Americans during World War II. I didn't BOMB them, I bought their pickups!(Japanese-Americans may have been US citizens...but culturally, of course, they were the 'same people' who built my pickup)..

My god-daughter is black; so unlike MOST Americans, who enslaved Africans segregated their descendants, I BAPTIZED them, and then treated their parents to dinner (in accordance with MY culture).

My family doctor is an immigrant from China...so obviously that makes me "cool" with forced labor (which in China, is considered 'OK').

I have a first cousin who's gay...so obviously I have no problem with cruising 'leather bars'...(which are considered 'good' by their clientele)

So you're right...let's just adopt everything from around the world that ANYONE says is "good".

Got to go now....I'm headed for Intenational House of Pancakes...I hear those Belgians make one HELL of a waffle! (and have you ever tried Swiss Chocolate? Amazing they can even GROW it in that climate !)..

Multiculturalism, yes.....adopt the "good", and ONLY the "good". And of course, we ALL agree on the definition of each..I mean, that's pretty obvious...Right...

Last edited by macmeal; 04-28-2009 at 12:48 PM..
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Old 04-28-2009, 02:42 PM
 
Location: Columbus, OH
857 posts, read 1,228,611 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Multiculturalism, yes.....adopt the "good", and ONLY the "good". And of course, we ALL agree on the definition of each..I mean, that's pretty obvious...Right...
I really do not understand your point here. You just stated the diversity within your own family and thats great. But it would not be possible if other cultures were rejected from this country... I honestly cannot tell if you are arguing for or against multiculturalism... but the sarcasm is awesome

All I am trying to say is that as long as they abide by the law then I have nothing against anyone or any culture. And instead of the good and bad comment I should have said whats legal and what is not, thats what I meant. Obviously good and bad is arbitrary, but the law is not. Bring on the world and its many cultures, but as long as they are in this country they play by its rules (laws).
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Old 04-28-2009, 02:56 PM
 
6,944 posts, read 8,878,222 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay100 View Post


Do you even understand the definition of multicultural? How is India multicultural, when 99% of the people are dark Indians? They might have different religions or whatever but they are genetically the same.

Same with Brazil. Most are a mixture of black and white, with some Native blood mixed in there. Large percentages of the population are not white Europeans from Europe, Japanese from Japan, Indians from India, or Africans from Africa, who are all seeking to maintain their own culture.

You don't know what you're talking about.
Well, maybe you don't either. India is so diverse that where the USA has one major language and 2 minor ones, India has 18 major ones and 138 minor ones. These groups all hail from completely different backgrounds. You talk as if they were all really as alike as a group of Swedes from neighboring villages, some of whom practice Islam and some of whom worship the Hindu pantheon. It's not like America, where most people don't know where their ancestors all come from and who change religions the way they change their socks. Just because they all look alike to you, it doesn't mean they ARE all alike. Color is not a useful indicator at all of where a person is coming from culturally, and that's more true in India than practically anywhere.

Same with Brazil. You're talking not only about every kind of European and African blood, but DOZENS of local Indian tribes as different from each other as Finns are from Eskimos.

You're coming across as if white, black and Indian were each a single separate culture. El wrongo.
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Old 04-28-2009, 03:03 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ulnevrwalkalone View Post
I really do not understand your point here. You just stated the diversity within your own family and thats great. But it would not be possible if other cultures were rejected from this country... I honestly cannot tell if you are arguing for or against multiculturalism... but the sarcasm is awesome

All I am trying to say is that as long as they abide by the law then I have nothing against anyone or any culture. And instead of the good and bad comment I should have said whats legal and what is not, thats what I meant. Obviously good and bad is arbitrary, but the law is not. Bring on the world and its many cultures, but as long as they are in this country they play by its rules (laws).
My point (and thanks for the compliment) is that we've LONG been 'multicultural' to the extent that it's practical to DO so....that we've spent MUCH of our history 'adopting' the good from elsewhere, while reserving the right to 'exclude the bad'.

Now, in very RECENT decades, it seems this isn't enough.....that we shouldn't exclude ANYTHING, and that any objection to anything, whether it's disruptive, 'racist or xenophobic' on the part of OTHERS, or just plain 'objectionable', is, by definition, a sign that we're "racist and xenophobic and exclusionist and mean".

I disagree. I think we're FAR more inclined to be 'multicultural' than are MOST societies. and that we go WAY farther to include others than some of THEM go to include us, and I think 'multiculturalism' has a practical limit, BEYOND which one begins to lose the ability to exist as a united, viable, society.

So to those who urge we "become" multicultural, I ask "in what way? And in regard to what cultural attribute(s); and in comparison to what OTHER society?" As I said, I believe we ARE pretty well 'multicultural' on the scale of the world's societies already....and if you, or anyone else, suggests we go FARTHER, I want to know "how MUCH farther, and toward WHAT?"...since we already allow 'just about ANYTHING' to go on here, as long as it doesn't hurt others...what MORE should we allow?

Not sure if I'm making myself clear...

Let me make a hypothetical illustration here....let's say our "culture", such as it is, emphasizes freedom, free speech, equality between the sexes, civil rights, religious tolerance, and the emphasis of 'law' over private acts of revenge....and that our penal code backs this up by penalizing deviations from this 'culture'.

Let's now suppose another culture (call it 'culture B') exists...it glorifies violence in the name of 'right', puts men ahead of women, emphasizes the right to revenge, and insists that one religion is the 'Only" religion, and has actually codified these things into its legal system.

Let's say the members of 'culture B' immigrate here. We allow them to continue with their diet, their music, their art, and their 'lifestyle' for the most part...and we even admire and ADOPT some of these things for ourselves...(we find we LIKE their food...we LIKE their music, etc). But we INSIST they can't bring over the 'rougher' aspects of their culture, because OUR culture won't tolerate them. Are we then being "multicultural" because we've 'included' much of their culture into our lives? Or are we being 'exclusionary' because we won't accept EVERY aspect?

My point is we're already DOING the 'first part' of this analogy..(adopting what WE feel is 'good')...and that we can NOT do the 'second part' (adopting the 'bad' parts of culture B), because to do so would require we give up OUR principles of 'right and wrong'.

So again, I'll ask.."What is it, exactly, that we should be doing to promote multiculuralism, that we're not ALREADY doing? And what more CAN we do, while at the same time maintaining some semblance of a 'united' society?

Lastly, of course, I remind everyone that we should NOT assume something is "good", just because someone SAYS it is. "Good" and "bad", in matters of culture, are relative terms....and before someone assures us something is "good", we need to make sure it's not just "good", but good for US..here..where we live. There's always the chance that something that's seen as "OK" elsewhere may NOT go over very well here.

Last edited by macmeal; 04-28-2009 at 03:28 PM..
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Old 04-28-2009, 03:40 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ulnevrwalkalone View Post
All I am trying to say is that as long as they abide by the law then I have nothing against anyone or any culture. And instead of the good and bad comment I should have said whats legal and what is not, thats what I meant. Obviously good and bad is arbitrary, but the law is not. Bring on the world and its many cultures, but as long as they are in this country they play by its rules (laws).
One final thought, in regards to your above. I've given several examples in recent weeks on this forum of people who come to this country, yet do NOT agree to abide by our laws. Not only the obvious case of immigration, but BIG laws, up to and including statutory rape, violence against 'promiscuous daughters', and all sorts of 'justifiable' acts to preserve family 'honor', etc.,..and in a number of cases Our own judges have AGREED..that these people may not always be held strictly accountable because their CULTURE doesn't view what they did as "wrong" !!

THIS is what I'm talking about. You seem to feel everyone can show up here, and they'll "get along OK", because they'll "get it"....and they'll simply see that they have no choice but to "do the right thing".

This may have been the case in former times..but today, not always. One man's "engagement rite" is another man's "statutory rape".....and one man may beat his wife because he's a "criminal", and his next door neighbor may beat HIS wife because "she ASKED for it"....and if the law begins recognizing these differing 'cultural realities', I think we're in big trouble. An increasingly, that's what's happening. Little by little, but more and more. And that CAN'T be a 'good thing'.

California 'Special Order 40' is, in essence, nothing more than a recognition that SOME people, by 'culture', are inclined to mistrust the police....so we 'protect them', by limiting what the police can DO in the case of illegal immigrants....even if some of these 'innocent' illegals are violent gang-bangers or felons. Ordinarily, we expect ALL citizens to cooperate with the authorities...but we make an exception in this case, because 'culturally', these folks don't trust the cops...and we recognize this, and we don't ASK them to.

Last edited by macmeal; 04-28-2009 at 03:49 PM..
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Old 04-28-2009, 10:16 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,556,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay100 View Post

Do you even understand the definition of multicultural? How is India multicultural, when 99% of the people are dark Indians? They might have different religions or whatever but they are genetically the same.

Same with Brazil. Most are a mixture of black and white, with some Native blood mixed in there.
You don't know what you're talking about.
Please stop embarrassing yourself, until you know what you are talking about..

In India, there are 18 official languages, and 13 of them are spoken by more than ten-million people each. In South India, most people's skin is as black as Africans (although they are nor related) and in much of the rest of India, there a many people who are as light as Arabs.

In Brazil, the people in the southern states are as white as Argentinians. In the north, most are quite dark from Caribbean influence. In the middle are all shades.
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Old 04-29-2009, 09:24 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Please stop embarrassing yourself, until you know what you are talking about..

In India, there are 18 official languages, and 13 of them are spoken by more than ten-million people each. In South India, most people's skin is as black as Africans (although they are nor related) and in much of the rest of India, there a many people who are as light as Arabs.

In Brazil, the people in the southern states are as white as Argentinians. In the north, most are quite dark from Caribbean influence. In the middle are all shades.
Agreed....never having visited India, I recognize its vast array of languages, religions..AND (for what it's worth) skin colors.....so certainly India could be called QUITE 'multicultural', as well as 'multiethnic' (I don't agree that 'skin color' is a mark of culture).

I've traveled all over Brazil, and it ALSO has a huge variety of 'folks'. In addition to the 'whitest whites' and the 'blackest blacks', Brazil also has an enormous Japanese-descended populace, along with Middle Easterners, and "natives" of all description from primitive jungle-dwellers to the totally urbanized. So Brazil is CERTAINLY multi-ethnic....and PROBABLY also somewhat multicultural. though not to the extent that India is.

The question, though, in reference to this thread, is 'do Brazil and India BENEFIT from their huge variety, or do they SUFFER?' Is it a 'plus', or a 'handicap'? I'd say that the answer depends on how one defines his terms. If India had its present huge population, but only ONE language, and ONE
agreed-upon national 'purpose', it might be a far less 'turbulent' place...yet it would probably also be a far less interesting one, too. Would it also be richer, or poorer? That's hard to say.
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Old 04-29-2009, 09:30 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,556,197 times
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As you may recall, the reason Brazil and India entered this discussion is because some poster bewailed the fact that California, due to its horrid multicultural curse, plummeted below several countries in its total economy ranking. I pointed out that two of the countries that passed up California's economy were Brazil and India, in spite of their multicultural curse. To be fair, the other country that passed California was South Korea, which is perhaps the most mono-cultural nation on earth.
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Old 04-29-2009, 12:33 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
As you may recall, the reason Brazil and India entered this discussion is because some poster bewailed the fact that California, due to its horrid multicultural curse, plummeted below several countries in its total economy ranking. I pointed out that two of the countries that passed up California's economy were Brazil and India, in spite of their multicultural curse. To be fair, the other country that passed California was South Korea, which is perhaps the most mono-cultural nation on earth.
Living as I do in California, I fail to see any 'multicultural curse' as such, nor any problem with a vibrant "mix" of people, some of which occurs in my own immediate family.

There's no doubt, however, that California has hosted a HUGE portion of the nation's total number of illegal immigrants; and that SOME of the controversy associated with this situation is argued along "cultural" lines, rather than economic, or legal, or other factors. Some people object to illegals because they see them as an alien "culture"....and others attempt to 'excuse' them for similar reasons.

To the extent that THIS (above) happens, then I suppose one could say it's a 'controversy' that's developed, and been exacerbated in PART, due to multiculturalism. That's a LONG way from saying California is "cursed" by multiculturalism....it would be more accurate to say that a disagreement CAN be made more complex in a multicultural setting, than the same disagreement would be in a monocultural one.
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Old 04-30-2009, 02:46 PM
 
2,739 posts, read 4,074,011 times
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Originally Posted by Cliffie View Post
Well, maybe you don't either. India is so diverse that where the USA has one major language and 2 minor ones, India has 18 major ones and 138 minor ones. These groups all hail from completely different backgrounds. You talk as if they were all really as alike as a group of Swedes from neighboring villages, some of whom practice Islam and some of whom worship the Hindu pantheon. It's not like America, where most people don't know where their ancestors all come from and who change religions the way they change their socks. Just because they all look alike to you, it doesn't mean they ARE all alike. Color is not a useful indicator at all of where a person is coming from culturally, and that's more true in India than practically anywhere.

Same with Brazil. You're talking not only about every kind of European and African blood, but DOZENS of local Indian tribes as different from each other as Finns are from Eskimos.

You're coming across as if white, black and Indian were each a single separate culture. El wrongo.

Look: Maybe you are just having a hard time dealing with reality. I have stated that they are all dark Indians from India and have the same or similar DNA. How is that diversity? I don't care of they speak different languages. Here you go, trying to put down Americans with your religious reference. Well, at least Americans are open to change...most of the people in India haven't changed since the beginning of time. Is that really a good thing?
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