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Old 04-11-2009, 07:00 AM
 
812 posts, read 2,079,494 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetpotater58 View Post
No nation can survive with an emphasis on multiculturalism at the level we now push in the United States. It is a tool of the far left to cause divisiveness-call it what it is. Inclusion for all in the American Dream yes, but multiculturalism no. If any immigrant who uses expressions "In my country, we did this or had that." should be rebuked by being asked "Are you an American?" If they say yes, then tell them to knock the "in my country" crap off and leave out of their thinking. I am an American and I expect everyone else here to be, so should the rest of you. Start speaking up, I know it isn't easy sometimes, but if we all start, it will turn around. Stop letting the far left ruin our great country with this multiculturalism garbage. Their is no strength in it, it is like trying to survive with a growing malignant tumor inside your body.
the whole thing is, no one really knows what being 'american' is, so they can only go by what they personally want the country they live in to be so if they compare some things to their past country is not really bad. also, i see this loose connection to other lands a good thing, expansive and better for any country as it keeps the flow of stimulation and information.

that's inevitable, just as prior americans made it into something they wanted or at least tried to. those prior immigrants seem more assimilating simply because they were pioneers starting from barebones and weren't subject to question their personal whims or desires nor what they decided to keep or discard from the old country.
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Old 04-12-2009, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
1,372 posts, read 2,489,633 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaana View Post
the whole thing is, no one really knows what being 'american' is, so they can only go by what they personally want the country they live in to be so if they compare some things to their past country is not really bad. also, i see this loose connection to other lands a good thing, expansive and better for any country as it keeps the flow of stimulation and information.

that's inevitable, just as prior americans made it into something they wanted or at least tried to. those prior immigrants seem more assimilating simply because they were pioneers starting from barebones and weren't subject to question their personal whims or desires nor what they decided to keep or discard from the old country.

i think being american means speaking english basically.
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Old 04-12-2009, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,574,557 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MimzyMusic View Post
i think being american means speaking english basically.
What do you think being Australian means, then?

I've lived in this country for a long time. Nobody has yet forced me to speak, read or write another language than my own, nor to go to their church, or wear the clothing that they prefer, or eat their cuisine, or attend their social events, or celebrate their holidays. One of the great things about America, though, is that I can if I want to. It's there, right in my neighborhood. Best of all worlds.
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Old 04-14-2009, 01:04 AM
 
11,961 posts, read 12,435,936 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetpotater58 View Post
No nation can survive with an emphasis on multiculturalism at the level we now push in the United States. It is a tool of the far left to cause divisiveness-call it what it is. Inclusion for all in the American Dream yes, but multiculturalism no. If any immigrant who uses expressions "In my country, we did this or had that." should be rebuked by being asked "Are you an American?" If they say yes, then tell them to knock the "in my country" crap off and leave out of their thinking. I am an American and I expect everyone else here to be, so should the rest of you. Start speaking up, I know it isn't easy sometimes, but if we all start, it will turn around. Stop letting the far left ruin our great country with this multiculturalism garbage. Their is no strength in it, it is like trying to survive with a growing malignant tumor inside your body.
You must be part of that "real america" tribe I heard about. It's very unamerican, actually, so it was voted OUT.

What I don't understand is why people suddenly got confused about what multi culturalism & diversity in america actually means. Who took it upon themselves to mysteriously redefine it? We've been doing it since day one and suddenly it's the news of the day crazy ivan, mao, pol pot, and arafat are taking over main street???

Multi culturalism doesn't entitle any sub group to revise american law to suit themselves. We speak english here and if it isn't a requirement for immigration it ought to be because you'd be at a severe disadvantage. BS teaching any other language unless it's secondary elective in public schools. I can hardly understand a word of so called english spoken by cajun louisianna folks, but there's little point in me complaining. I ask them to speak slower. Tolerance aka patience, a willingness to understand another human being.

It's really not hard unless you're hell bent on making it hard, which seems the agenda of right wing radicals. You make it hard on your own damned selves when you want to equate actual culture with crime. The law is the law people. Sharia law is unamerican, and if muslims have a problem with compliance with American law, it's best they find another place to live.
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Old 04-14-2009, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Columbus, OH
857 posts, read 1,229,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetpotater58 View Post
No nation can survive with an emphasis on multiculturalism ... Stop letting the far left ruin our great country with this multiculturalism garbage. Their is no strength in it, it is like trying to survive with a growing malignant tumor inside your body.
Basically you want to be able to hold onto your culture while still being part of America, but you are arguing against multiculturalism... I hope the Irony of this is not lost on the rest of you .

Be careful what you wish for my friend, if we get rid of multiculturalism some of the things you consider to be normal may suddenly be un-American. Like saying potater, its potato. But I don't call people who do not know the English Language un-American because I am not against multiculturalism... just a little food for thought
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Old 04-15-2009, 10:19 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,617,384 times
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I am a big believer in the American ideal.....of freedom for all, equality for the sexes, tolerance for various religions and races, and respect for other people. I'm in an interracial marriage (between two races) and have a third race in my close family, not to mention NUMEROUS ethnic backgrounds.
I like all SORTS of cuisine, music, and art, and I like to be exposed to different ideas.

I am against multiculturalism, because I believe culture, at its core, includes values, ethics, a sense of "right and wrong"..."good and evil"...."appropriate and inappropriate".....and I don't believe these things are negotiable, nor do I think they can be 'glossed over'. One man's "right" is another man's "wrong", and REAL LIFE, out in the day-to-day world, isn't Disneyland.

Those who insist they're 'OK with all other cultures' have either never experienced any NEGATIVE example of another culture; have chosen to ignore it; or simply have no 'ethics' themselves. I think if MOST of us were honest, we'd say "I like the nice, enjoyable, fun parts of other cultures, but I don't like the negative aspects". But that's the whole POINT....a 'culture' is a whole way of looking at life; at relationships; at one's place in society; at resolution of conflicts; at violence, revenge, and the relationship between 'family ties' and 'civic duty'. None of these things are 'interchangeable'.

One solves a conflict either by violent revenge, OR by calling the police...but not BOTH. One puts his trust and gives highest estimation to the LAW....or to 'family loyalty'.but not both. A promiscuous daughter is either beaten, or excused..but not both. A wife is either an 'equal partner' to her husband, or a possession...but you can't have it both ways. Religious rivals are either tolerated, or violently attacked...but not 'both'.

Culture is the most important determinant of human behavior. I think America should continue building its culture here, comprised of MANY races and ethnic groups, united in an understanding of 'common decency' and the mandate that we MUST put the Law above personal agendas. We should continue to accept the 'good' things we can, from other cultures..but we must ALSO reserve the right to reject that which WE FEEL is bad.

Nobody REALLY accepts "any and all other cultures, no questions asked". People who claim to do this are being dishonest. What do you do, for example, toward 'including' someone who doesn't WANT to be included? How does one show 'tolerance' toward the intolerable? Cultures, by their nature, don't 'promote each other'...they promote THEMSELVES.

And while we're on the subject of 'other cultures', (assuming we're speaking here of an American viewpoint of 'us'), what to 'WE' do, when we have one 'other' culture on our left, and ANOTHER 'other' culture on our right, and we 'tolerate' both of them, but they hate EACH OTHER? There are cultures that are blatantly racist, xenophobic, and intolerant. Is this "OK with us", because that's 'what they believe'? Or is it "Not OK", because we INSIST they "get along", regardless of HOW their culture tells them to act?

Surely, these well-meaning 'multicultural' people would object to a culture which rejects THEM..or rejects freedom...or rejects tolerance..or allows 'ritual rape' or 'honor killing' or 'sex with children' as cultural norms. And if these things bother you, then you're not REALLY being 'multicultural'.....you're picking and choosing....you're assigning 'right and wrong' to someone else's behavior. And isn't that what we ALL do? Pick out what we LIKE, and reject what we see as 'wrong'?

Last edited by macmeal; 04-15-2009 at 10:48 PM..
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Old 04-15-2009, 10:22 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,427,088 times
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its interesting to me, but pluralism as a civic system is not working at all.
the curious part is that it is the european americans themselves that are losing and rejecting their american identity not the foreigners.
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Old 04-15-2009, 10:39 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,617,384 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
its interesting to me, but pluralism as a civic system is not working at all.
the curious part is that it is the european americans themselves that are losing and rejecting their american identity not the foreigners.
European Americans, as the former dominant group, HAD to reject their earlier ethnic identities, sensing that this was the ONLY way a multiethnic, multiracial artificial 'conglomerate' like the USA could possibly function. It's newer arrivals who are missing this point, and that's only been true for a relatively short period of history.

Unlike some societies, the USA isn't organized around concept of race, ethnicity, religion, or 'blood'. THe USA is purely artificial, depending on a voluntary acceptance by ALL of us on a self-imposed system of laws and regulations. Without that 'mutual agreement' to abid by this system, we'd quickly collapse. Living in a free society requires a LARGE degree of agreement as to our 'rights and responsibilities'. Without that agreement (our central 'culture') we invite strict measures to FORCE us to behave...and then, there's no more free society.
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Old 04-15-2009, 11:04 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,574,557 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post

I am against multiculturalism, because I believe culture, at its core, includes values, ethics, a sense of "right and wrong"..."good and evil"...."appropriate and inappropriate".....and I don't believe these things are negotiable, nor do I think they can be 'glossed over'.
I don't know of any country in the world where ordinary people in the streets believe that it is OK to treat each other in ways that are evil by American standards. These are not negotiable because they are not variable. In Iran and Myanmar and Uganda, I found that I could walk up to any person in the street, and assume that he had the same sense of good and evil that you or I have. In every case that was borne out, and nobody anywhere ever treated me in a way that conflicted with my own sense of good and evil. When those people come to my country, they remain just the same, and retain their moral sense.

Appropriate and inappropriate are not moral issues. In many countries it is inappropriate for a man to touch a woman without a formal relationship having been established. This is not a moral issue. A woman from one of these countries should not be told to go back to where she came from if she feels indignant being groped by American men.
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Old 04-16-2009, 10:31 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,617,384 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I don't know of any country in the world where ordinary people in the streets believe that it is OK to treat each other in ways that are evil by American standards. These are not negotiable because they are not variable. In Iran and Myanmar and Uganda, I found that I could walk up to any person in the street, and assume that he had the same sense of good and evil that you or I have. In every case that was borne out, and nobody anywhere ever treated me in a way that conflicted with my own sense of good and evil. When those people come to my country, they remain just the same, and retain their moral sense.

Appropriate and inappropriate are not moral issues. In many countries it is inappropriate for a man to touch a woman without a formal relationship having been established. This is not a moral issue. A woman from one of these countries should not be told to go back to where she came from if she feels indignant being groped by American men.

"Appropriate and inappropriate" are cultural issues. Your stance (that nobody 'pushes' his culture on you) is OK, IF you have no sense of 'judging' the behavior of others, and can truly say "what works for HIM is OK with me". You may truly feel this way, but I suspect most people do not.

Some cultures turn a 'blind eye' toward sex with underage girls, or 'forced' marriage....or allow for the beating of errant wives, at such times as it's 'needed'. Other cultures regard wives as the 'property' of their husbands; Males as 'superior' to females; and girls as 'unclean' and unworthy of an education. Other cultures believe in violent revenge to atone for slights and 'insults', and physical punishment for various sorts of crimes.

If you can live your life in peace, while your next-door neighbor beats his wife, and if you can say "that's OK with ME, because it's their business", then I will concede that you are TRULY a believer in multiculturalism. MOST of us would not be able to do this, and we'd want to 'intercede' on the wife's behalf.

I can give you an example of what happened in MY area, some time ago (10 or 11 years). This is a VERY diverse area, quite 'famous' in the US, and is quite heavily populated.

Among our groups is a certain demographic (in HUGE numbers) currently embroiled deeply in the 'immigration' controversy. Among this group, it came to the attention of SOMEONE that a disturbing number of underage girls were getting pregnant, and a disturbing number of their 'partners' were men in their 30's. Pressure was applied, one thing led to another, and eventually the District Attorney filed charges against 19 or 20 'couples', charging the males with Statutory Rape. The oldest male, as I recall, was nearly 40; the youngest female was 14.

An investigation was launched (amid HUGE publicity), and at last it was determined that these people were not really 'victimizing' anyone. ALL parties, males and females, were "OK" with the situation; in fact, so were their families, and in SEVERAL cases, the 'perpetrators' were actually LIVING under the same roof as the girl AND her parents.

Eventually, after much turmoil, the DA elected to DROP ALL CHARGES in these cases...Why?.."For reasons of CULTURE". He explained that where 'these people came from', such practices were accepted; he said this should be seen as a sort of 'engagement' (and, in fact, several males hurriedly married their young 'partners' as the investigation closed in). The DA said that "nobody in these cases feels 'victimized', and it's not our 'place' (the Office of the DA) to interfere in 'cultural matters', and it would serve no purpose to prosecute these men'.

End of story? Almost. TWO cases, as I recall, WERE prosecuted, in which the girls were 13. THAT was just a little "too much culture" even for the DA, I guess.

Note, though, that at the end of the day, this was CLEARLY an example of 'culture' prevailing over the law of the land. What would certainly send MOST men to prison, was in THIS case, "OK" because of cultural differences.

The situation drew MUCH publicity,much anger, and much controversy from all SORTS of people. One 'culture' was 'pleased', while many OTHER cultures in the area were 'outraged'.

This is an example of what I'm talking about. Clearly, this was a case of cultures 'clashing'...without physical violence, but clashing nonetheless. It wasn't a 'nice' example of multiculturalism, it was a very contentious one. It left MANY people angry at the DA, and in MY opinion, diminished his credibility as an Officer of the Court.

I can't see multiculturalism working, and it's only in its beginning stages. Left to its ultimate end, it could well result in violence, anger, and ultimately, the loss of many of our personal liberties, in order to 'keep us from hurting each other'. It would be SO much better if we all agreed on the same standards of behavior, rather than have some DA decide what's OK for some of us, but not for others.

And, no, I do NOT believe that people the world over share the same sense of "good and evil". My above story is just ONE example. The idea of suicide bombers as 'martyrs' is another. MUCH of life, and our daily interactions, is seen through the lens of our culture, and what's "OK" some places, is NOT "OK" in others. Cultures ultimately will NOT peacefully co-exist in close quarters..either they'll clash, or one will simply submit to the other.

As far as food, clothing, music, and art being 'multicultural'....well, isn't that pretty much what we've ALWAYS done in America? Those 'surface' things we've ALWAYS had. Nobody's EVER been forced to eat Apple Pie, or watch a baseball game. But on a deeper level? No, multiculturalism won't work....quite simply, because MOST of the 'participants' aren't interested in 'multiculturalism', they're interested in perpetuating their OWN culture...

If ALL human beings were open-minded to ALL behavior, and were never bothered by OTHER people's behavior, then multiculturalism would be a simple matter. But human being don't operate that way.
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