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Old 04-16-2009, 10:36 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I don't know of any country in the world where ordinary people in the streets believe that it is OK to treat each other in ways that are evil by American standards. These are not negotiable because they are not variable. In Iran and Myanmar and Uganda, I found that I could walk up to any person in the street, and assume that he had the same sense of good and evil that you or I have. In every case that was borne out, and nobody anywhere ever treated me in a way that conflicted with my own sense of good and evil. When those people come to my country, they remain just the same, and retain their moral sense.

Appropriate and inappropriate are not moral issues. In many countries it is inappropriate for a man to touch a woman without a formal relationship having been established. This is not a moral issue. A woman from one of these countries should not be told to go back to where she came from if she feels indignant being groped by American men.

"Appropriate and inappropriate" are cultural issues. Your stance (that nobody 'pushes' his culture on you) is OK, IF you have no sense of 'judging' the behavior of others, and can truly say "what works for HIM is OK with me". You may truly feel this way, but I suspect most people do not.

Some cultures turn a 'blind eye' toward sex with underage girls, or 'forced' marriage....or allow for the beating of errant wives, at such times as it's 'needed'. Other cultures regard wives as the 'property' of their husbands; Males as 'superior' to females; and girls as 'unclean' and unworthy of an education. Other cultures believe in violent revenge to atone for slights and 'insults', and physical punishment for various sorts of crimes.

If you can live your life in peace, while your next-door neighbor beats his wife, and if you can say "that's OK with ME, because it's their business", then I will concede that you are TRULY a believer in multiculturalism. MOST of us would not be able to do this, and we'd want to 'intercede' on the wife's behalf.

I can give you an example of what happened in MY area, some time ago (10 or 11 years). This is a VERY diverse area, quite 'famous' in the US, and is quite heavily populated.

Among our groups is a certain demographic (in HUGE numbers) currently embroiled deeply in the 'immigration' controversy. Among this group, it came to the attention of SOMEONE that a disturbing number of underage girls were getting pregnant, and a disturbing number of their 'partners' were men in their 30's. Pressure was applied, one thing led to another, and eventually the District Attorney filed charges against 19 or 20 'couples', charging the males with Statutory Rape. The oldest male, as I recall, was nearly 40; the youngest female was 14.

An investigation was launched (amid HUGE publicity), and at last it was determined that these people were not really 'victimizing' anyone. ALL parties, males and females, were "OK" with the situation; in fact, so were their families, and in SEVERAL cases, the 'perpetrators' were actually LIVING under the same roof as the girl AND her parents.

Eventually, after much turmoil, the DA elected to DROP ALL CHARGES in these cases...Why?.."For reasons of CULTURE". He explained that where 'these people came from', such practices were accepted; he said this should be seen as a sort of 'engagement' (and, in fact, several males hurriedly married their young 'partners' as the investigation closed in). The DA said that "nobody in these cases feels 'victimized', and it's not our 'place' (the Office of the DA) to interfere in 'cultural matters', and it would serve no purpose to prosecute these men'.

End of story? Almost. TWO cases, as I recall, WERE prosecuted, in which the girls were 13. THAT was just a little "too much culture" even for the DA, I guess.

Note, though, that at the end of the day, this was CLEARLY an example of 'culture' prevailing over the law of the land. What would certainly send MOST men to prison, was in THIS case, "OK" because of cultural differences.

The situation drew MUCH publicity,much anger, and much controversy from all SORTS of people. One 'culture' was 'pleased', while many OTHER cultures in the area were 'outraged'.

This is an example of what I'm talking about. Clearly, this was a case of cultures 'clashing'...without physical violence, but clashing nonetheless. It wasn't a 'nice' example of multiculturalism, it was a very contentious one. It left MANY people angry at the DA, and in MY opinion, diminished his credibility as an Officer of the Court.

I can't see multiculturalism working, and it's only in its beginning stages. Left to its ultimate end, it could well result in violence, anger, and ultimately, the loss of many of our personal liberties, in order to 'keep us from hurting each other'. It would be SO much better if we all agreed on the same standards of behavior, rather than have some DA decide what's OK for some of us, but not for others.

And, no, I do NOT believe that people the world over share the same sense of "good and evil". My above story is just ONE example. The idea of suicide bombers as 'martyrs' is another. MUCH of life, and our daily interactions, is seen through the lens of our culture, and what's "OK" some places, is NOT "OK" in others. Cultures ultimately will NOT peacefully co-exist in close quarters..either they'll clash, or one will simply submit to the other.

As far as food, clothing, music, and art being 'multicultural'....well, isn't that pretty much what we've ALWAYS done in America? Those 'surface' things we've ALWAYS had. Nobody's EVER been forced to eat Apple Pie, or watch a baseball game. But on a deeper level? No, multiculturalism won't work....quite simply, because MOST of the 'participants' aren't interested in 'multiculturalism', they're interested in perpetuating their OWN culture...

If ALL human beings were open-minded to ALL behavior, and were never bothered by OTHER people's behavior, then multiculturalism would be a simple matter. But human being don't operate that way.
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Old 04-16-2009, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,556,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post

I can give you an example of what happened in MY area, some time ago .
I am not interested in hearing your anecdote about a case in which "ALL parties, males and females, were "OK" with the situation"; If they're OK with it, I'm, OK with it.

Aside from the indisputable fact that anecdotal evidence does not prove (or even reflect) any general truth, I have know enough red-blooded American sociopaths to have my own body of anecdotal evidence. I also have a statistic from Wikipedia that is legitimately persuasive:

Antisocial Personality disorder is diagnosed in approximately three percent of all males and one percent of all females [in the United States]

This fact is to be understood as a limiter to my observation that people everywhere go about their daily lives treating each other in a good, rather than an evil spirit. Of course, except the sociopaths.

As for your martyrs and suicide bombers, there is, in my neighborhood and yours, at least one man who stood and watched while children on fire ran from Vietnamese villages that our neighbors had sprayed with napalm. We live among these men, who are not immigrants.
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Old 04-16-2009, 11:22 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I am not interested in hearing your anecdote about a case in which "ALL parties, males and females, were "OK" with the situation"; If they're OK with it, I'm, OK with it.

Aside from the indisputable fact that anecdotal evidence does not prove (or even reflect) any general truth, I have know enough red-blooded American sociopaths to have my own body of anecdotal evidence. I also have a statistic from Wikipedia that is legitimately persuasive:

Antisocial Personality disorder is diagnosed in approximately three percent of all males and one percent of all females [in the United States]

This fact is to be understood as a limiter to my observation that people everywhere go about their daily lives treating each other in a good, rather than an evil spirit. Of course, except the sociopaths.

As for your martyrs and suicide bombers, there is, in my neighborhood and yours, at least one man who stood and watched while children on fire ran from Vietnamese villages that our neighbors had sprayed with napalm. We live among these men, who are not immigrants.
OK, I understand. You're a true believer in multiculturalism, and you honestly feel that no place, no culture, and no group has the 'patent' on good behavior. We're all equally 'bad', and that's that. And statutory rape is "OK with you, as long as it's OK with them". Got it.

I respect your views, which I believe, are not shared by many people. You'll get no more 'anecdotal input' from me; I'll step aside here while you continue to enlighten us with your own irrefutable facts, unassailable logic, and 'stand-on-their own' bits of wisdom (unaffected, as they are, by any of your own personal views). You're not intersted in my examples, and I can understand that. But forgive me if I find myself FASCINATED by yours.....and PLEASE, whatever you do, don't stop 'pontificating' on MY account. I'm particularly eager to hear of your experiences in Iran, Myanmar, and Uganda, and how the folks there were determined to 'embrace' your culture, and consider it equal to their own. (Assuming you ASKED them to..which, I suspect, you did not).

Last edited by macmeal; 04-16-2009 at 12:04 PM..
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Old 04-16-2009, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,556,197 times
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"It's depressing... The biggest thing I don't like about New York are the foreigners. You can walk an entire block in Times Square and not hear anybody speaking English. Asians and Koreans and Vietnamese and Indians and Russians and Spanish people and everything up there. How the hell did they get in this country?"

Words of Wisdom? Do you remember who said that? Atlanta Braves pitcher John Rocker
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Old 04-16-2009, 11:39 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
It's depressing... The biggest thing I don't like about New York are the foreigners. You can walk an entire block in Times Square and not hear anybody speaking English. Asians and Koreans and Vietnamese and Indians and Russians and Spanish people and everything up there. How the hell did they get in this country?

Words of Wisdom? Do you remember who said that? Atlanta Braves pitcher John Rocker
So who is John Rocker? Why do WE care what he said? And do we hold John Rocker up as an example of how to behave?

As I seem to recall, John Rocker was widely mocked and condemned for his silly, 'off-the-cuff' remarks. Other than THAT, what does the opinion of a ball player have to do with a discussion on multiculturalism?

How does John Rocker feel about space travel? Or constipation? Or the National debt, or about Sri Lanka? More imporatantly, who CARES how he feels?

I'm not intersted in reading your "ball player quotes", by the way. (As another poster recently said...sort of).
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Old 04-16-2009, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Columbus, OH
857 posts, read 1,228,861 times
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Maybe I am misunderstanding this whole debate here. Are people taking multiculturalism to mean that people are going to move to this country and act exactly as they did in their home country and our laws will not apply to them??? B/C thats retarded, if you live in this country, our laws apply. If they can live in this country and follow the laws what problem can anyone have with people preserving their culture???
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Old 04-16-2009, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,556,197 times
Reputation: 35864
Quote:
Originally Posted by ulnevrwalkalone View Post
Maybe I am misunderstanding this whole debate here. Are people taking multiculturalism to mean that people are going to move to this country and act exactly as they did in their home country and our laws will not apply to them??? B/C thats retarded, if you live in this country, our laws apply. If they can live in this country and follow the laws what problem can anyone have with people preserving their culture???

There have been mentions here and elsewhere about London's Sharia law, which permits Muslims to resolve their family disputes among themselves according to their religious customs. This is wrongly interpreted to mean that British laws are no longer binding on British citizens, and Sharia is being shoved down everybody's throat. I think Jews enjoy largely the same privilege in New York.

ABQConvict, early on, was one of them:

" . . . impose their culture (Sharia law in London,. . . "

Last edited by jtur88; 04-16-2009 at 04:25 PM..
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Old 04-16-2009, 04:20 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,415,357 times
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its interesting but it is not producing americans its producing people coming here for the buck. the most unamerican behavior is coming not from immigrants but from our young.
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Old 04-16-2009, 04:33 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ulnevrwalkalone View Post
Maybe I am misunderstanding this whole debate here. Are people taking multiculturalism to mean that people are going to move to this country and act exactly as they did in their home country and our laws will not apply to them??? B/C thats retarded, if you live in this country, our laws apply. If they can live in this country and follow the laws what problem can anyone have with people preserving their culture???
We have in excess of 20 million people living here illegally. We have laws against this, but they don't apply, because to apply those laws would be seen as 'racist, xenophobic, and anti-family'.

Above, I recounted an example of several cases of Statutory Rape. We have laws against that, too....but they didn't apply to SOME people, because of their culture ('acting like they did back home')...

We have MANY cases of violent illegal-immigrant 'gang-bangers' who have committed crimes. We have LAWS against this behavior, but because of 'Special Order 40', which protects 'good' illegals from undue police surveillance, these violent felons are ALSO prevented from being questioned, and thus it's very difficult to arrest them. Again, we have laws...but in this instance, they don't "apply" to these felons...(Special Order 40 was written so those from cultures which FEAR the police, will hopefully be able to fear them a little LESS).

If people are living in this country, and following the laws HERE, then they've already adapted to OUR culture. Which particular part, of whose culture, are you suggesting they are forbidden to practice? Their cuisine? Their music? Their artwork? What part of someone's culture can they NOT practice here, and in precisely what way are "we" not multicultural already?

If you're suggesting our laws discriminate against some groups....or some groups are more successful than others....or some groups get more "out" of the system because they put more "in"..then what do you suggest we DO, to eliminate these cultural disparities? Should those students who drop out of high school be given the same diploma as those who "Hit the books" all through their school years? Should a girl who graduates from college with honors, expect to live be in the same income group as the girl who becomes pregnant at 16? If not, is this a 'cultural disparity'?

Can you cite a law which says "THIS group is allowed to do (xxxx), but OTHER groups are not ?". Can you give an example of a recipe not permitted, or a festival disallowed, or a language which is FORBIDDEN to be spoken in America? How are we 'stifling' other cultures, UNLESS it's by making a FEW cultural attributes illegal...such as ritual rape, beatings, religious violence, and child molestation? Are you suggesting these things SHOULD be allowed? If NOT, then precisely how are we not 'including' other cultures NOW.? Our culture, in the USA, is by definition a 'conglomerate' of many diverse groups united in a common 'purpose'. How do you suggest we might become more diverse, yet still HAVE a society?
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Old 04-16-2009, 09:49 PM
 
1,117 posts, read 1,747,253 times
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macmeal....I lived in a neighborhood just like yours. I saw many cultural "norms" that shocked the hell out of me. I will NEVER accept or embrace some of the atrocities committed against human beings, all in the name of "culture".

The United States needs to stop patronizing people from other cultures and start standing behind our own culture. And we need to do this without apology, without shame, without guilt, and without hesitation. The U.S. is under no political or moral obligation to celebrate other cultures, especially those that violate so much of what we Americans have fought for.

Honestly, when are we going to STOP being intimidated by the world?
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