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Unread 04-04-2009, 07:48 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
37,368 posts, read 31,711,325 times
Reputation: 26748
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyoquilter View Post
Poor judgement is no excuse, just like ignorance is no excuse.

.
What I said, though, is that a rape that results from poor judgment is removed from a crime of control, to a crime that is sexually motivated. Premiditated forcible rape is a crime of control, and in the past, the word was used in criminology to include mainly that kind of criminality. Increasingly, the classification of rape includes non-premeditated incidents, in which the perpetrator is not motivated by a pre-existing psychopathic intent to exert control, but by a moral weakness that arises under the developing circumstances.

What, in the above (or in my previous post) suggests that I accept it as an excuse? Do you also think I condone terrorism, if I attempt to analyze a terrorist's motive?
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Unread 04-04-2009, 08:01 PM
 
2,465 posts, read 2,780,407 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
What I said, though, is that a rape that results from poor judgment is removed from a crime of control, to a crime that is sexually motivated. Premiditated forcible rape is a crime of control, and in the past, the word was used in criminology to include mainly that kind of criminality. Increasingly, the classification of rape includes non-premeditated incidents, in which the perpetrator is not motivated by a pre-existing psychopathic intent to exert control, but by a moral weakness that arises under the developing circumstances.

What, in the above (or in my previous post) suggests that I accept it as an excuse? Do you also think I condone terrorism, if I attempt to analyze a terrorist's motive?
Well obviously the said perpetrator who is charged with rape because he used poor judgement must still have a screw loose somewhere if he can't take NO for an answer. Maybe that is why these said perpetrators are increasingly being classified with the other sickos and nut jobs. NO still means NO no matter how a person got to the point of sexually hurting someone. Intentionally or unintentionally it is still rape and still a crime.
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Unread 04-04-2009, 08:14 PM
 
9,926 posts, read 8,104,232 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyoquilter View Post
I don't think I could explain what you think you were trying to say, as I took what you said the same way moonshadow and Violett did. Poor judgement is no excuse, just like ignorance is no excuse.

The only time I would say that a man would not be guilty of a sexual crime is if the woman cried rape after she had consented to the sexual act. Now I have known that to happen. In a case like that I think the woman should be charged with some sort of crime.

People who file a false report of rape, or people who blame the victim of rape should all be tarred and feathered. Because they make it harder to convict the criminals.
Agreed!
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Unread 04-04-2009, 08:17 PM
 
16,199 posts, read 9,810,161 times
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Legalizing prostitution would certainly not change the incidence of rapes at all. Rape is a crime of violence. These are not generally men who have not had sex in awhile and are horny. These are men that either have issues with women in general, anger issues, or control issues.
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Unread 04-04-2009, 08:19 PM
 
9,926 posts, read 8,104,232 times
Reputation: 7139
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
What I said, though, is that a rape that results from poor judgment is removed from a crime of control, to a crime that is sexually motivated. Premiditated forcible rape is a crime of control, and in the past, the word was used in criminology to include mainly that kind of criminality. Increasingly, the classification of rape includes non-premeditated incidents, in which the perpetrator is not motivated by a pre-existing psychopathic intent to exert control, but by a moral weakness that arises under the developing circumstances.

What, in the above (or in my previous post) suggests that I accept it as an excuse? Do you also think I condone terrorism, if I attempt to analyze a terrorist's motive?
jtur although the motivation prior to the act might be different actually going through with the act is still motivated by control and power. It may not look as ugly or seem as bad if it appears not to be premeditated but as I said previously, plenty of decent guys are capable of stopping even if they do have poor impulse control or show moral weakness. To continue despite everything going on with the situation isn't just an "oops I'm sorry, I have poor impulse control, excuse, yada yada" it's rape and that's about exerting power.
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Unread 04-04-2009, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Denver
627 posts, read 1,153,862 times
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Thanks for the input. I'm convinced that, in cases where rapists just want to overpower someone and/or have mental issues, legalizing prostitution probably wouldn't do much to decrease rape.

What I'm not convinced about is whether it would have an effect on date rapes and in instances where the victim already knows the rapist. I believe that a lot of sane men probably wouldn't bother dating if they could get what they wanted from a prostitute instead. A lot of men don't want relationships, but play the dating game in hopes of getting physical. I think a lot of those men really want to have sex with the women they date, and for some reason, they convince themselves that the women want it as much as they do. I had a friend who was raped this way after she told him 'no' several times, but he kept telling her that it would feel really good and did it anyway.

Even though I'm still undecided on whether legal prostitution would do much to decrease rapes, I'm starting to think maybe it should be legal. At least the prostitutes would have control that way, and they wouldn't be exploited by their pimps for little or no pay.

I wonder if maybe society would feel different about prostitution if we didn't have the mindset that casual sex is dirty? I'm not a fan, but it seems to be what some people want. Maybe then, people wouldn't look down on prostitutes so much, they wouldn't be abused, and therefore, wouldn't have to numb themselves with drugs?

I honestly don't know what I believe. I'm just thinking about it.
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Unread 04-04-2009, 09:26 PM
 
Location: Nebraska
4,180 posts, read 4,954,802 times
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While so many people believe the TV pity-drama of prostitutes as poor ignorant abused and drugged victims, a LOT of them are not. You don't hear about them because 1) they don't get arrested/caught, and 2) no one wants to believe that "decent, educated" women actually sell sex to men.

My DH has a common sense attitude - he says that all women are prostitutes to some degree - they trade sex for a comfortable home, children, and a lifestyle. I have witnessed some women that have sex like rabbits with their intended - and once the ring is on the finger, they refuse to indulge; in effect, offering the promise of sex for the stability they require. Any wonder some men have the attitude about women that they do?

I have known rapists (LE and EMS experience) and I'm sorry, but no - legalizing prostitution won't cure 'date rape' or even marriage/relationship rape either. Rape is a violent expression and demand for power over a victim. "Convincing themselves" that the woman "wants it" is a common practice among rapists and is about their empowerment, not about thwarted affection or love that gets carried away. I refuse to excuse a rapist because he protests that he is "in love" or "got carried away". No means NO; any violation of that is an intentional violation of a woman's right to self-ownership and dignity.

And yes I do feel that the attitude of many that sex - outside of a relationship, and sometimes even inside of one! - is a dirty thing. Quoting again from DH - If I was going to create a human, I wouldn't put the playground so close to the garbage dump. Between that and the learned revulsion towards sex, even to nicknaming parts of the body instead of using their correct names! - what else could prostitution be but an even dirtier practice? Anyone name their elbow or their left ear? If not, why name body parts anything but what they are, and accept that everyone has them, and they are all part and parcel of what makes up every individual? It exacerbates an already childish attitude toward the natural functions of the human body.
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Unread 04-04-2009, 09:28 PM
 
Location: Boca Raton
9,342 posts, read 15,064,811 times
Reputation: 8988
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjohnson4381 View Post
I don't even know if this is an appropriate topic, but I'm curious. I've always been strongly opposed to legal prostitution because men who pay for sex are treating women like objects. I hate that. I wouldn't want any of my friends or family members to get involved in it. And I definitely wouldn't associate with a guy that was into it (if I was aware of the fact that he was into it).

Anyway, I also have a friend who does probation/parole work. Long story short, there are apparently a lot more rapists out there then I would have originally guessed. Do you think if these rapists could pay someone to have consensual sex with them, this could be prevented? Or would it just make everything worse? I've casually looked around on the internet and it seems like there's a lot of opinions out there for both sides.
Rape is a crime of violence, it's not about the sex. I don't think it would have any impact on rape to legalize prostitution.

Prostitutes get raped, too.
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Unread 04-04-2009, 10:06 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
37,368 posts, read 31,711,325 times
Reputation: 26748
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyoquilter View Post
Well obviously the said perpetrator who is charged with rape because he used poor judgement must still have a screw loose somewhere if he can't take NO for an answer. Maybe that is why these said perpetrators are increasingly being classified with the other sickos and nut jobs. NO still means NO no matter how a person got to the point of sexually hurting someone. Intentionally or unintentionally it is still rape and still a crime.
But it's not always a premeditated act by a pathological control freak, which was the characterization I was rebutting.
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Unread 04-05-2009, 06:52 AM
 
Location: Texas
13,398 posts, read 6,737,089 times
Reputation: 2801
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
But it's not always a premeditated act by a pathological control freak, which was the characterization I was rebutting.
The man is still a pathological control freak in that case.
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