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Old 04-07-2009, 12:52 PM
 
2,466 posts, read 4,203,011 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motoman View Post
Being shot is not an act on your part, so of course you do not have a choice in that matter.

The point of the original statement was about things we have control over, that we have the ability to make a choice about. Most people say at one point or another, some quite often, things like "I didn't have a choice in the matter", or "so and so made me do it", or "so and so made me angry", etc.

If you are standing face to face with a gunman and he says do this or else I will shoot you, the choice to do whatever he asked you to do or not is totally up to you. If he chooses to shoot you anyway, obviously you have no choice over that because it was not something you could have controlled. That was his choice.

We always have a choice when it is something we can control. No one makes us angry, or makes us not eat, or makes us consistently late to meetings, or makes us fat, or makes us lonely, or makes us lazy, or makes us stupid, or makes us smart. All of these things require effort on our part, they require decisions, made by us, to do or be those things.

If someone is mental challenged, they do not control that, perhaps then they do lack the mental ability to choose what we would consider "normal" things. But of those things they are capable of making a decision about, whatever those things may be, how they choose to do them or react to them is totally up to them.

If I get cancer, I have no control over getting that cancer, unless it was caused by something I did, like smoking. But how I react to getting cancer, how I react to the treats and my possibility of death is totally up to me. Some people take it in relative stride and make the best of the situation. Others create immense drama, adding to the stress of the situation. Either way it's a choice.

Again, the point is that of those things we can control we always have a choice. It may not be the ideal choice we would like to be able to make, but it is a choice nonetheless.
The point I was trying to make, was that sometimes people have to make split second decisions and have no time to take into consideration whether it was a good decision or a bad decision. When a bullet leaves a gun the person in line with the bullet has but a split second to make a decision to duck, dodge or stand still. You said and I quote, "Personally, I believe everything we do is a choice, how we react to every situation is a choice, etc. I've yet to find evidence proving otherwise." So by your own statement you are saying that the person that is in the line of fire had a choice in how they reacted to the situation.
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Old 04-07-2009, 12:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliffie View Post
As a Detroiter who lost someone at my high school to a stray bullet, I know that's not true.

But I once had someone tell me with a straight face that because there are no accidents, the driver of the van that piled into my Escort and totaled it was in a "soul contract" with me. Although technically I stopped to avoid hitting the dog that ran out into the road, and she was driving with her head turned around backwards chatting with her children and didn't notice me looming up in her windshield, we CHOSE to collide.

Does anyone remember est training? Those people held that a Vietnamese baby who was born into a war zone and was doused with gasoline and torched at My Lai was "creating his own reality" and had nobody to hold responsible for it but himself. I think this is a good illustration of how big, simple ideas turn out to be wrong when you pick at them a little.

To put the baby thing to rest, I don't believe any reasonable person would argue a baby has control of anything at all. Those arguing it was the baby creating its own reality were obviously nut cases.

Regarding accidents, I don't believe there are very many accidents, as most people define the word accident in daily life. Most "accidents" are just the logical conclusion to a series of bad decisions.

Both parties do not have to be at fault, although you could get very technical and always point blame to both parties. I could say, well it was your fault for waking up that morning and leaving your house. But that isn't rational. What IS rational is to place blame on the person driving the car, not paying attention to the act of driving, but instead choosing to do other things instead. So no, it wasn't an accident. It was the logical conclusion to that person not paying attention. A conscious choice that person made.

But of course, getting anal about it, as some people so far have, you could say that it was your choice to avoid hitting the dog, and having hit the dog maybe you would have eliminated the accident. But again, that isn't a very rational argument. A technical argument yes, but not rational.
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Old 04-07-2009, 12:59 PM
 
830 posts, read 2,506,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyoquilter View Post
The point I was trying to make, was that sometimes people have to make split second decisions and have no time to take into consideration whether it was a good decision or a bad decision. When a bullet leaves a gun the person in line with the bullet has but a split second to make a decision to duck, dodge or stand still. You said and I quote, "Personally, I believe everything we do is a choice, how we react to every situation is a choice, etc. I've yet to find evidence proving otherwise." So by your own statement you are saying that the person that is in the line of fire had a choice in how they reacted to the situation.

Yes, the person in the line of fire did have a choice. Their possible options may have been either terribly bad or incredibly bad, but nonetheless it was a choice.

This is one of those arguments that can get so damned specific and technical that you can get to the point of irrationality very quickly.

Something to keep in mind is the difference between what may be reasonably expected of a person and what can technically be argued. Yes, technically, that person had a choice. Reasonably, I would have shat my pants and pissed so hard and started crying to the point the shooter probably would have started laughing.
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Old 04-07-2009, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,574,557 times
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The fact is, there are things we can easily control, and things we can't control at all, and huge wide swath of things in the gray area in between, that can be controlled or not according to the resolve and the discipline of each individual, and the importance and cost-effectiveness of making or letting it happen. Doesn't that pretty well sum it up?
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Old 04-07-2009, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
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People don't even think they should pay for the decisions they make, it's not a choice for anyone...it's a combination of peer pressure, neurosis's from the past, chemical dependence of some sort, and stupidity.

Some 18 year old kid kills his parents and shoots up a school? Always bully's, mommy didn't love him enough, and he didn't know how to cope...but we should go easy on him because he's an orphan. See anyone addicted to drugs it is never their fault, it's always some outside factor that made them do it and keeping them down...they didn't stick the needle in their arm, it was friends, it was parents that fought all the time, they didn't know what it would do...

IMHO if you make a decision you are responsible for the consequences of the decision. The exclusions I think is that you are not responsible for everything that happens to you randomly, like a meteor falling out of the sky and mashing you into potato salad...or if you made the best decision possible and something happens outside of any rational consideration, like going to a gas station over another cause it is cheaper and a herd of buffalo appear and trample you to death.
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Old 04-07-2009, 01:21 PM
 
830 posts, read 2,506,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
The fact is, there are things we can easily control, and things we can't control at all, and huge wide swath of things in the gray area in between, that can be controlled or not according to the resolve and the discipline of each individual, and the importance and cost-effectiveness of making or letting it happen. Doesn't that pretty well sum it up?

Yes, for the most part that is true. But the most important thing you said was:

"...that can be controlled or not according to the resolve and the discipline of each individual, and the importance and cost-effectiveness of making or letting it happen."

See, here you've said that basically if it's important enough to us, and it makes financial and other sense, then we'll do it. Otherwise we'll choose not to. But you've taken ownership of that decision, right? It is all about taking ownership of your choices and not blaming other people for those choices you make.

It may seem like common sense to you, but I'm sure you know as many people as I do that blame the rest of the world on their problems, not realizing how their own decisions have been the greatest determining factor in creating their situation.
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Old 04-07-2009, 01:23 PM
 
830 posts, read 2,506,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subsound View Post
People don't even think they should pay for the decisions they make, it's not a choice for anyone...it's a combination of peer pressure, neurosis's from the past, chemical dependence of some sort, and stupidity.

Some 18 year old kid kills his parents and shoots up a school? Always bully's, mommy didn't love him enough, and he didn't know how to cope...but we should go easy on him because he's an orphan. See anyone addicted to drugs it is never their fault, it's always some outside factor that made them do it and keeping them down...they didn't stick the needle in their arm, it was friends, it was parents that fought all the time, they didn't know what it would do...

IMHO if you make a decision you are responsible for the consequences of the decision. The exclusions I think is that you are not responsible for everything that happens to you randomly, like a meteor falling out of the sky and mashing you into potato salad...or if you made the best decision possible and something happens outside of any rational consideration, like going to a gas station over another cause it is cheaper and a herd of buffalo appear and trample you to death.

Indeed!
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Old 04-07-2009, 01:29 PM
 
2,466 posts, read 4,203,011 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motoman View Post
Yes, the person in the line of fire did have a choice. Their possible options may have been either terribly bad or incredibly bad, but nonetheless it was a choice.


Being shot is not an act on your part, so of course you do not have a choice in that matter.

So which is it? Did the person who was shot have a choice or didn't they?
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Old 04-07-2009, 01:44 PM
 
830 posts, read 2,506,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyoquilter View Post
So which is it? Did the person who was shot have a choice or didn't they?

It depends on what they had control over.

If someone shoots a bullet at you, you have no control over that. That isn't a choice you can make.

If the bullet is going slow enough that you even have time to debate about making a decision, then how you react to that bullet coming at you is your choice.

Odds are, as you said, you have but a split second to do something when a bullet is coming at you. I believe our "natural" instincts of survival, however you want to define that, would lead us to the conclusion to hit the ground. We may not consciously think about making that decision, but our little brains nonetheless do make that decision. It is no different than if someone throws a ball at my head. I am likely going to react, even though the time I spent thinking about reacting may have been so small that it doesn't even register to me that I thought about anything.

But some people freeze up in the face of fear, so their decision may be to do nothing and just stand there. I still believe that is a decision. It is a decision because they are too scared to do anything else. And being scared or not, in my view, is a decision we make.

Of course, if you are suicidal you may just decide to stand there and take the bullet. Or maybe you'll take it to protect someone else.
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Old 04-07-2009, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,574,557 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motoman View Post
But you've taken ownership of that decision, right? It is all about taking ownership of your choices and not blaming other people for those choices you make.
.
Reading selectively, you skipped the part where I said a lot of things that happen to you are in the swath of things that you can't control. Some of those can have huge impact on the direction your life takes. Furthermore, the amount of resolve and discipline individuals have is a variable, and some have more than others. Just as some are taller than others, or some are blacker than others, and some are smarter than others, and you have to work with the tools you have.

You also fail to note that many decisions are made on incomplete or unavailable information. Perfect foreknowledge would have resulted in the right decision, but not many of us are in continuous possession of perfect foreknowledge.
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