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Old 04-14-2009, 11:49 AM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,937,867 times
Reputation: 3848

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
While my experience in that area is a great deal shallower than yours, I did spend quite a bit of time in Romania in the '60s. Seemingly, the people were unanimous in their hatred of the Ceausescu regime. Yet, there were still large enough numbers of people who voluntarily chose to support the regime, that there were plenty of police, spies, informants, and operatives that one could not trust anybody. How is it that people like Hitler and Ceausescu and Stalin can find such huge numbers among their populace that support them so wholeheartedly?
The fact that people hated Ceausescu doesn't mean they loved Hitler. The enemy of one's enemy isn't necessarily one's friend -- and people who were deemed "subhuman" by Hitler knew that better than anybody. I hate Stalin, but I'd take Stalin over Hitler any day. People who didn't like Stalin nevertheless fought against Hitler for Stalin -- because at least under Stalin, one could hope to avoid repressions though "correct" behavior; which would not be an option for Slavs (or Jews, or Gypsies) under Hitler. Communists had a vision of a superior regime and cultural subjugation. The Nazis had a vision of a master race, and if you happened to be the "wrong" race living under the Nazis, there was absolutely NOTHING you could do to avoid being gassed, tortured, maimed or worked to death. You are also confusing the issue. A claim was made that supposedly many or most Eastern Europeans "rallied to Hitler's cause". Eastern Europeans weren't exactly "Hitler's populace", unless you adapt the Nazi viewpoint that the Germans had ownership rights to all of Europe and northeast Asia. And, rallying to Hitler's cause, for an Eastern European, would mean supporting policies of forced sterilization, slave labor, and eventual extermination against oneself. To suggest that people supported a cause for their own annihilation -- not cultural, but actual, physical destruction -- is utterly ludicrous.

My mother's family came from a city that changed hands 4 times -- occupied by the Nazis, then retaken by the Soviets, then reoccupied by the Nazis again, then finally liberated. In the early 1940's memories were still fresh there of the "raskulachivanye" of the 1920's and the Purges of the 1930's; but as people learned very quickly, those were but child's play compared to what the Nazis had in store for the civilian population.
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Old 04-14-2009, 12:02 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,523,609 times
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You mised my point---or did I miss yours? You said people in Eastern Europe were wholeheartedly against fascism, and I pointed out that fascists never had any trouble finding all the people they needed right there, ready and willing to do their dirty work for them.

If the pro-Soviet dictators in post-war Poland found it so easy to recruit people willing to support their cause, why do you think that pro-Hitler interests could not find supporters in Poland in sufficient numbers to keep the population under his tyranny?
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Old 04-14-2009, 12:08 PM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,937,867 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
You mised my point. You said people in Eastern Europe were wholeheartedly against fascism, and I pointed out that fascists never had any trouble finding all the people they needed right there, ready and willing to do their dirty work for them.
And I pointed out that this is incorrect. Fascists had A LOT of trouble finding people in Eastern Europe willing to aid them -- except to a limited extent, perhaps, in the deportation of Jews and Gypsies. Apart from that, very few in the local population cooperated with them. The overwhelming majority fought against.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
If the dictators in post-war Poland found it so easy to recruit people willing to support their cause, why do you think that Hitler could not find supporters in Poland in sufficient numbers to keep the population under his tyranny?
Because it makes no sense whatsoever to support your own extermination. Unlike the Nazis, dictators in post-war Poland weren't hell-bent on killing off the Polish people for being Polish. What I find curious is how persistently you ignore the racial policies that are at the heart of Nazism.
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Old 04-14-2009, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
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Stalin did not pesonally kill millions of Russians. He got other good patriotic Russians to do it for him.
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Old 04-14-2009, 12:29 PM
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
32,106 posts, read 39,155,933 times
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File:Stjepan Filipovic.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


File:Lamenting the dead.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


File:Einsatzgruppen Killing.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

File:Execution of Poles by German Einsatzkomanndo Oktober1939.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 04-14-2009, 12:39 PM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,937,867 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Stalin did not pesonally kill millions of Russians. He got other good patriotic Russians to do it for him.
Did he get Germans to kill Germans for being German? Because that would be the true equivalent of your argument that the Nazis somehow got Eastern Europeans to exterminate themselves on racial grounds.
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Old 04-14-2009, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,523,609 times
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The contentious statement is this:

There were also plenty of Waffen SS divisions from Eastern Europe. Some were conscripted, many weren't.

My point is that, regardless of they tyrant or his goals, it has never been difficult for one to find plenty of countrymen to do his dirty work for him. If that is the case, then even Hitler would have been able to benefit from that principle irrespective of the specifics of his autocracy. Redisca, you wish to place Hitler in a separate class that would insulate him from this fact of life. I don't know if that is so, but I doubt it. Human nature is not that variable.
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Old 04-14-2009, 12:50 PM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,937,867 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
The contentious statement is this:

There were also plenty of Waffen SS divisions from Eastern Europe. Some were conscripted, many weren't.

My point is that, regardless of they tyrant or his goals, it has never been difficult for one to find plenty of countrymen to do his dirty work for him. If that is the case, then even Hitler would have been able to benefit from that principle irrespective of the specifics of his autocracy.
And your point is wrong. Poles weren't Hitler's "countrymen", because Hitler wasn't a Pole. Ukrainians weren't Hitler's "countrymen" because Hitler wasn't Ukrainian. There was no support for the Nazi cause among people deemed "subhuman" by the Nazis. That is the equivalent of saying that "plenty of blacks" in the US supported the Jim Crow laws and participated in lynchings (as perpetrators). You can also claim that that "plenty of Waffen SS" were composed of Jews and Gypsies, but saying it won't make it so. It's nonsense. It simply isn't true. It WAS exceedingly difficult for the Nazis to find people willing to exterminate their own families. Theorize all you want -- it isn't true. "Nazi" and "German" were dirty words when I was growing up. "Commie" wasn't even among the dissidents.

Hitler WAS in a separate class -- because he had a scheme for exterminating people based on race and/or ethnicity. To state that this is just like any other ideology is dishonest and to claim that the people designated by Hitler for extermination were his ideological allies is insane. What you are attempting is moral equivocation -- to say that Hitler's extermination of people on the basis of their birth was no big deal and no different than political repressions. That may be easy to sell to someone far removed from the events in question -- but I ain't buying.
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Old 04-14-2009, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Harrisonville
1,831 posts, read 2,058,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
And your point is wrong. Poles weren't Hitler's "countrymen", because Hitler wasn't a Pole. Ukrainians weren't Hitler's "countrymen" because Hitler wasn't Ukrainian. There was no support for the Nazi cause among people deemed "subhuman" by the Nazis. That is the equivalent of saying that "plenty of blacks" in the US supported the Jim Crow laws and participated in lynchings (as perpetrators). You can also claim that that "plenty of Waffen SS" were composed of Jews and Gypsies, but saying it won't make it so. It's nonsense. It simply isn't true. It WAS exceedingly difficult for the Nazis to find people willing to exterminate their own families. Theorize all you want -- it isn't true. "Nazi" and "German" were dirty words when I was growing up. "Commie" wasn't even among the dissidents.

You're hitting a cultural barrier here. There is a (very) recent political movement in the US to declare Nazism/Fascism to be the same thing as Socialism/Communism, as bizarre as that sounds. You are totally correct, in terms of things like a Dictionary or a History book, but good luck getting anywhere dissuading this belief. I thought I would mention this because if one were to make this assumption, all the other argumants would start to make sense, wouldn't they?
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Old 04-14-2009, 12:59 PM
 
Location: San Diego
2,518 posts, read 1,844,514 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
Which civilians and what extermination? Nobody was being "exterminated" systematically until after Wannsea, i.e. AFTER we entered the war--and such war crimes and massacres and in particular aerial bombing of civilians as were already occurring were occurring on both sides. Many of the people of Eastern Europe rallied to Hitler's cause because he presented the possibility of destroying Stalin, a opportunity they would've been crazy not to seize if they cared about their own countries.
Ghettoizing people, Kristallnacht and the experiments on people began before 12/7/1941...while the "Final Solution" hadn't been enacted yet, the massacre of humans had already begun. Plus, the war in Europe had already been raging for two+ years when the US entered and many civilians had been murdered by Nazis already.
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