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Old 04-14-2009, 01:46 PM
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
10,341 posts, read 9,982,800 times
Reputation: 9095

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I think one big difference between the radical 'I hate America crowd' and other folks is that the America haters will defend other nations that are clearly wrong (yes, I did say black-horse wrong) so that they might vilify the US. Now, having said that, am I claiming that the US is snow white perfect? Absolutely not. Am I claiming that the US is the best thing since sliced bread on the planet? Absolutely not. My argument is that when something 'wrong' is done (gassing jews, for instance), it's wrong. Just the same as distributing smallpox infested blankets to Native Americans was wrong of the US. Just as holding other human beings as slaves was wrong. It was all wrong. But wrongs are not the sole domain of the US. And if you people can support an argument that actions by the US have been wrong, then you obviously know that there is a 'wrong.' So quit playing games. All crimes against humanity are wrong (unless you are a sociopath) and the label of 'wrong' should be applied proportionally to whomever perpetrated these atrocities.

So as for WW2, you can take your pick of all the combatants, each having committed 'wrongs.' You can choose the allies who, YES, did commit some obvious violations with respect to the human rights of innocent people, or you can pick the axis side, who intentionally committed mass murder—not just a few, but millions upon millions based on race, national origin, mental condition, and political view. Yes, the US locked away their own citizens of Japanese heritage. It was WRONG! But did the US gas them and aspire to wipe them from the face of the earth? No. Yet you fanatic America haters do not see (or will not concede) a difference. That's why I contest your views. Not that you are wrong about the US having committed its fair share of f-ups, but because your brand of radical extremism only leads us down the same path you are decrying. It is a mindset that forgoes reason and common sense and embraces emotionalism, which is never a substitute for logic.

If you research the issue, you will find that every nation from the beginning has committed wrongs. So although I can't go along with djaques comment singling out America as 'sucking,' I can generalize that pretty much the whole world sucks in that regard and each nation is guilty of its own horrors. Unfortunately, it seems to be human nature, at least for a portion of us. For the rest, it's a matter of finding the lesser of the evils and trying to lead, hopefully, a peaceful life.

When someone (such as me) defends the US from these sorts of slams on this thread, it's not because I, or we, are 'captain America.' It's just that we all realize that it's not necessarily better in this respect, and in many cases much worse, elsewhere. I am by no means a 'captain America' type. Number one, I don't even believe in government of any kind, but recognize it (given the social mentality of our species) as a necessary evil (and of course one would hope to minimize that evil). Number two, I can name several countries that, if I could gain residency within (legally!), I would leave right now. I have no great love for any nation (although I do acknowledge and appreciate the freedom I am afforded here in the US), but I have a hard time reading slanted, one-sided, biased BS. If you are going to call something unjust or wrong, call it wrong across the board, put your burning cross down, and quit singling out the United States as the bad guy, when all nations are in this pot together and all guilty to one extent or another--and its that extent you need to take into account in your reasoning.
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Old 04-14-2009, 02:42 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,556,197 times
Reputation: 35864
Chris, if you acknowledge, though, that power corrupts (and it is hard to argue that it does not), we are left with the inescapable conclusion that most of the world's ills are directly or indirectly caused by corruptive power, and the USA certainly has a huge share, if not a majority, of the available power to be applied to the task of corruption.

---------------------

"Lord Acton's Dictum" is worth reading in its full context:

"I cannot accept your canon that we are to judge Pope and King unlike other men with a favourable presumption that they did no wrong. If there is any presumption, it is the other way, against the holders of power, increasing as the power increases. Historic responsibility has to make up for the want of legal responsibility. Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority: still more when you superadd the tendency or certainty of corruption by full authority. There is no worse heresy than the fact that the office sanctifies the holder of it. "

Last edited by jtur88; 04-14-2009 at 02:53 PM..
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Old 04-14-2009, 02:53 PM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,939,282 times
Reputation: 3848
The problem with Nazi Germany wasn't corruption.
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Old 04-14-2009, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,556,197 times
Reputation: 35864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
The problem with Nazi Germany wasn't corruption.
I was replying to ChrisC. Rread post #141 for context, which was not about Hitler. Nazi Germany was certainly corrupt, among other things. Nobody said that all evil arises only from corruption, to the exclusion of any other factor. The world did not start and stop with Hitler, and Berlin was not the center of the universe. I suggest you widen your historical perspective somewhat. Lord Acton was talking about morally corrupt, not Ted Stevens corrupt.
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Old 04-14-2009, 03:08 PM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,939,282 times
Reputation: 3848
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I was replying to ChrisC. Nazi Germany was certainly corrupt, among other things. Nobody said that all evil arises only from corruption, to the exclusion of any other factor. The world did not start and stop with Hitler, and Berlin was not the center of the universe. I suggest you widen your historical perspective somewhat.
Thanks for the extremely generous suggestion, which was not at all condescending. [/end sarcasm]. This is a thread about World War II -- so naturally it is to a great extent about the Nazi Germany and Hitler, and your attempts to morally equivocate the Nazis with the Allies. All in the name of "widening" one's historical perspective, of course. Isn't that the perpetual mating call of revisionists? "Open-mindedness"?
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Old 04-14-2009, 03:12 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,556,197 times
Reputation: 35864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
and your attempts to morally equivocate the Nazis with the Allies.
I do not recall writing a single post in this thread in which I in any manner justified the behavior of Nazi Germany. Yes, this thread is about,among other things, Nazi Germany. But that does not mean that every comment need be interpreted to be specifically about Hitler. Neither Hitler nor Germany were mentioned in ChrisC's post to which I replied.
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Old 04-14-2009, 03:29 PM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,939,282 times
Reputation: 3848
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I do not recall writing a single post in this thread in which I in any manner justified the behavior of Nazi Germany.
You didn't quote-unquote justify it -- but you trivialized it through equivocation. And that's an implicit justification (as well as one of the basic methods of apologetics).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Yes, this thread is about,among other things, Nazi Germany. But that does not mean that every comment need be interpreted to be specifically about Hitler. Neither Hitler nor Germany were mentioned in ChrisC's post to which I replied.
You mentioned that most of the world's ills are caused by a "corruptive" (corrupt?) power -- applicable to World War II, that would mean it was mostly caused by powers other than the Nazi Germany, since it wasn't corruption that was driving its cause. Again, more equivocation from you.
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Old 04-14-2009, 03:52 PM
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
10,341 posts, read 9,982,800 times
Reputation: 9095
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Chris, if you acknowledge, though, that power corrupts
Altough we clearly have differing opinions on other points along the course of this thread, I will certainly agree that this is true.
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Old 04-14-2009, 05:58 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,193,238 times
Reputation: 4103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
I knew victims of Hitler and people who lived through the German occupation.
Yeah, well I knew Eastern Europeans who fought on the side of Germany, though they didn't care much for the Germans. Some of them were ardent anti-Semites. Some of them were afraid of Communism. Some of them were teenagers who simply did what they were told, like teenagers in most countries at most times. I never got them impression that joining the pro-Axis side was an overwhelmingly unpopular position, but hey, I wasn't there.

Quote:
There were VERY few of them. I grew up surrounded by an OVERWHELMING hatred of the Nazis. Most people who fought either fought in regular forces against Hitler or as partisans. What you are saying is a lie, and you repeating it does not make it true.
How old are you, if you please?

Quote:
So, if it was not an explicit policy, those exterminations don't count?
They don't count as a reason for the U.S. to jump into a war in which it has no identifiable national interest, particularly when massacres are going on all over the world. If it was the duty of the U.S. to save Europe from Hitler, it was the duty of the U.S. to save the rest of the world from every other dictator who might choose to show up.

Quote:
Incidentally, when were all those extermination camps constructed? And for what purpose? Oh, right, they were just giant bakeries. That happened to have barracks and gas chambers nearby.
Even the most ardent WW2 fans don't claim Roosevelt had foreknowledge of the Holocaust; he only barely had contemporaneous knowledge of it.

Quote:
Here is something I don't understand: If it was Jews who caused the US to "provoke" Germany and Japan, why would Jews do something that would cause Jews exterminated? Doesn't seem like a good conspiracy to me.
The Jews who lobbied for war with Germany didn't have foreknowledge either.

Quote:
Oh, where did you learn your history? The institute of historical review? Right, Jews control the world and use evil Jewish science to cause tsunamis in Islamic countries. Do I have it about right?
Wait a goddamn minute. Are you actually attempting to tell me that there were not Jews in the Senate, House, Cabinet, entertainment and news media during this period? Do I need to provide detailed biographies of each of them, or are you really that bewildered by the fact?
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Old 04-14-2009, 05:59 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,415,357 times
Reputation: 47455
have the seen the photoes and flicks carefully prepared by general eisenhower?
the gas chambers. that is why he did that. he knew they would soon be forgotten.cant happen here? wait til blackwater takes away our weapons, you wont believe what happens next.
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