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Old 04-08-2009, 08:28 AM
 
Location: Visitation between Wal-Mart & Home Depot
8,309 posts, read 33,343,837 times
Reputation: 7038

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sukwoo View Post
Is this thread an example or an exception of Godwin's law?
For anyone who doesn't know, Godwin's Law (1990) is something to the effect of "As an internet forum discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison to Nazis or Hitler approaches 1"

I think its actually an exception. Discuss amongst yourselves.
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Old 04-08-2009, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,194,955 times
Reputation: 4103
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrouteman View Post
Why was the US in WWII? The same reason we were in WWI. To defend democracy and freedom.
Gag me with a spoon. Wars are the favorite expedients of politicians in a crisis.

We were in WWI because we wouldn't get repaid our loans to the Allies if they lost. Five months after getting elected on an anti-war platform, Wilson declared war and locked up anyone who complained.

We were in WW2 because the media and the political class had a predictable bias against Germany and in favor of Russia. Germans murdered Jews, Russians murdered Ukrainians, Baltic peoples, Poles, and other Russians. There were a lot of Jewish movers and shakers in America and very few Ukrainians, so they got to tell the story the way they wanted.

In point of fact, not only was Communism bloodier than fascism, but fascism can only be explained as a reaction to Communism. Either way, any American president worth his salt would've rejoiced at the two evil systems fighting to the death, rather than jumping in to pull one side's chestnuts out of the fire. But warmongers like Roosevelt are never satisfied.

"You and I know that this continuous putting pins in rattlesnakes finally got this country bitten." --Herbert Hoover, 8 Dec 1941.
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Old 04-08-2009, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,194,955 times
Reputation: 4103
Quote:
Originally Posted by ulnevrwalkalone View Post
If I understand your point, you are saying we should have just let the Germans win because now we are being conquered by Mexicans? thats retarded and you disrespect all those who fought and died in order to stop that mass murdering F*** head known as Hitler. You are saying what they did was for nothing. I wonder if you would say that to a WWII vet??
Both my grandfathers were WW2 vets, you intellectual sand trap, and I think WW2 was a crock of s***. We had no business in it, none, period.

I agree that the comparison to Mexican immigrants is inapt. But at least they are actually here. No Germans were ever going to land here, especially if we'd never started picking a fight with them to begin with.
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Old 04-08-2009, 09:13 AM
 
Location: Columbus, OH
857 posts, read 1,228,861 times
Reputation: 558
Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
Both my grandfathers were WW2 vets, you intellectual sand trap, and I think WW2 was a crock of s***. We had no business in it, none, period.

I agree that the comparison to Mexican immigrants is inapt. But at least they are actually here. No Germans were ever going to land here, especially if we'd never started picking a fight with them to begin with.
Not really sure what i means to be an intellectual sand trap but I will defend myself anyway. Now from my understanding of your argument you think america should have stayed isolationist, which I can understand. And I agree the Germans never had any intention of invading America, thats why we needed the Japanease to attack us. Without the Japs, who knows how it would have played out. I guess it comes down to a simple question: if you have the power to stop evil, do you have a responsibility to do so? even if it means putting people that were otherwise perfectly safe into harms way? Some say yes, some say no, and if you want to start an isolationist debate I would gladly join in, but this thread is comparing mexicans to nazis and that is deplorable.
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Somewhere in northern Alabama
16,851 posts, read 51,335,478 times
Reputation: 27726
Godwin's law also is interpreted as "Once Hitler is mentioned, the useful part of any thread is over, and the thread is officially closed."

This is a "debate" (if it even deserves to be called that) where there is an abysmal lack of understanding of history.

FWIW, there were German nationals that were landed on U.S. soil from a submarine to carry out acts of sabotage and spying. Germany had long range plans to bomb New York City. The bulk of the scientists who created the nuclear bomb and intercontinental ballistic missiles came from Germany. Had Germany been allowed to go unchallenged, they likely would have developed the A-bomb. The U.S. intercepted a ship from Germany going to Japan after the project began to fall apart. That ship was filled with refined nuclear material, which we conveniently used. The exterminations of the holocaust were not limited to Jews by any stretch of the imagination, but included anyone who didn't agree with the German dominance, along with their relatives. German submarines attacked the neutral U.S. cargo ships which were supplying Britain with goods. By the way, we were ALSO supplying Germany with goods and technology at the same time.

Not entering the war would have been completely idiotic. If the U.S. had not done so, we would have been looking at a Europe completely controlled either by Germany or (more likely) Stalin's Soviet forces by no later than the late 1940s. Once a defensive perimeter was in place, it would have almost certainly led to an armed conflict between that power and the U.S., where ICBMs would have been the weapon of choice and all coastal U.S. cities would have been at extreme risk. Had the Soviets been allowed access to all of industrialized Europe, and open trade with Africa, South America, and held influence over China, the U.S. would have been doomed, both economically and militarily.

As for the Mexicans invading the U.S... Oh really? I hate to bring it up, but if you know even a smidgen of history, you know that the U.S. invaded Mexico. Those itty bitty states called California and Texas? Think they were settled and developed by the Pilgrims? Here's a clue, they weren't. For that matter, Florida wasn't colonized by Scandinavians either.

This is not a debate. It is a sand kicking contest by people who are totally ignorant about the subject, and is being used to troll for emotional reactionary responses. Yac, if you are reading, do the thread a favor and put it out of its misery. If it must continue, stick it in history where the clueless will be laughed out of the thread.
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Old 04-08-2009, 11:44 AM
 
48,519 posts, read 81,048,183 times
Reputation: 17978
The problem with WWII has nothi9g to do with the problem we now havew have with mexican illegals. One of was a war broughyt on by japan and their ally geramny. the other is a law enforvemnt problem with people breaking our immigration laws.just like the german and japenese problem I think now that the violence from mexico is spilling intot eh US our governamnt will react rather than thinkl of it as some political problem that includes votes. We have always been a reactionary people rather than procative.
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Old 04-08-2009, 11:53 AM
 
Location: Washington DC
5,915 posts, read 7,087,007 times
Reputation: 948
Japan attacked us and Germany declared war on us. That's why we were in WWII. It's pretty simple.
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Old 04-08-2009, 11:55 AM
 
Location: U.S.
1,581 posts, read 4,770,568 times
Reputation: 1103
Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea View Post
Godwin's law also is interpreted as "Once Hitler is mentioned, the useful part of any thread is over, and the thread is officially closed."

This is a "debate" (if it even deserves to be called that) where there is an abysmal lack of understanding of history.

FWIW, there were German nationals that were landed on U.S. soil from a submarine to carry out acts of sabotage and spying. Germany had long range plans to bomb New York City. The bulk of the scientists who created the nuclear bomb and intercontinental ballistic missiles came from Germany. Had Germany been allowed to go unchallenged, they likely would have developed the A-bomb. The U.S. intercepted a ship from Germany going to Japan after the project began to fall apart. That ship was filled with refined nuclear material, which we conveniently used. The exterminations of the holocaust were not limited to Jews by any stretch of the imagination, but included anyone who didn't agree with the German dominance, along with their relatives. German submarines attacked the neutral U.S. cargo ships which were supplying Britain with goods. By the way, we were ALSO supplying Germany with goods and technology at the same time.

Not entering the war would have been completely idiotic. If the U.S. had not done so, we would have been looking at a Europe completely controlled either by Germany or (more likely) Stalin's Soviet forces by no later than the late 1940s. Once a defensive perimeter was in place, it would have almost certainly led to an armed conflict between that power and the U.S., where ICBMs would have been the weapon of choice and all coastal U.S. cities would have been at extreme risk. Had the Soviets been allowed access to all of industrialized Europe, and open trade with Africa, South America, and held influence over China, the U.S. would have been doomed, both economically and militarily.

As for the Mexicans invading the U.S... Oh really? I hate to bring it up, but if you know even a smidgen of history, you know that the U.S. invaded Mexico. Those itty bitty states called California and Texas? Think they were settled and developed by the Pilgrims? Here's a clue, they weren't. For that matter, Florida wasn't colonized by Scandinavians either.

This is not a debate. It is a sand kicking contest by people who are totally ignorant about the subject, and is being used to troll for emotional reactionary responses. Yac, if you are reading, do the thread a favor and put it out of its misery. If it must continue, stick it in history where the clueless will be laughed out of the thread.
Awesome Post!
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Old 04-08-2009, 02:51 PM
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
10,341 posts, read 9,988,245 times
Reputation: 9095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exitus Acta Probat View Post
A common refrain I often hear, regarding our participation in WWII is, "It's a good thing we went to Europe and defeated the National Socialists, or else we'd all be speaking German!"

As opposed to speaking non-Castilian Spanish? How is that any better? And how is it that being invaded by people from nations to the south any better than being invaded by Germans? Are Germans notorious for destroying health care systems, educational systems, public assistance programs, etc.?

"Germans" aren't notorious for anything except maybe sauerkraut and beer. But the leadership and military/police machine of Nazi Germany was notorious for killing innocent people. Lot's of them. In an intentional and systematic way. The term for that is genocide. Illegal immigrants and immigration, as annoying and infuriating a situation as it is, are not notorious for committing genocide. To my knowledge, illegal immigrants have not nor do they intend to build death camps. There is of course an illegal element, but there is no organized genocide.

So, in answer to your question: you damn right Nazi Germany would have been far more detrimental to the nation had they been victorious than is the illegal alien threat that we now deal (or not) with.

As someone mentioned earlier, had Germany developed nuclear weapons, you can bet the farm that there would have been far more than two nuclear blasts in history used in time of war. As alluded to in another thread, I'm not much into being a "man"; but that being the case, even I'm smart enough to know, "man" or not, that when someone looks at you, tells you he is going to kill you, and proceeds to load a 44 magnum in front of you, that you shouldn't just stand there and let him do it. You need to incapacitate him before he spins the cylinder, points the muzzle at you, and things get really bad. That's why we were in WW2. Some people don't get that. Germany had the most sophisticated weapons and most powerful military in the world at the time. And it was only getting stronger and more advanced. No, had Germany taken over, you wouldn't have been speaking German. You'd have been dead. There was no place for cowards in Hitler's world... or anyone else his group didn't like.

To make a statement on a separate issue that is directly related to some of the arguments I read on this thread: It doesn't matter who is being discussed--Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Ghenghis Khan, or any other oppressor/sadistic mass murderer--some of you would defend them. It wouldn't matter if Satan himself came to earth and started murdering people by the billions, you would still defend him and justify his actions. To you, this country, the United States is ALWAYS in the wrong. No matter the issue. Always wrong. You loath this country. Yet, you have the freedom to ***** about it as you will. Do you think you'd have the right to do that under Hitler?
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Old 04-08-2009, 03:12 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,755,932 times
Reputation: 2524
When I attended the US Army Sergeants Major Academy course I had a basic political science class. To this day I cannot remember who said these words but to me they make a lot of sense.

The words were:
Friendship binds men but national interest binds countries.

In my own words, if a nation has something our nation needs, we will be their "friends". If not, we don't care about them. If in any form that country is a threat, hindrance or obstacle towards our national interest, we will take action to take care of it and the same other nations do if they feel we are doing the same. We are friend with other nations in a very different view than what we call friends in our daily lives.

I think this political principle answers a lot of the questions as to why nations act the way they do. The bottom lines is to survive and if it is possible a nation would like to be the top dog because it has more say so in the world arena.

Very often national leaders do tell the people they are going to go to war for some moral principle.
However, very often that is simply a method to get the masses to go along with that. I am not saying that in the end some benefit is done to a people and certain abuses are stopped but the real intent tends to simply survival to keep a nation afloat.

Look back in history including WWII, did we get there as soon as we saw atrocities happening in Europe? No, we did not. If the real intent was to help jews we would have been there much earlier. I do not remember the big liner filled with jews that was rejected from entering the U.S. Was that morally right? In my opinion it was not.

The bottom line? The political world arena is a cut throat dog eat dog world. Smaller nations may cut deals (pacts) with stronger nations to survive. All nations are competing for the world resources to sustain themselves and that, to me, is the main reason nations fight each other for strategic advante to protect and advance their national interests.

We at our level judge things from a more moralistic and idealistic view but right there at the top, you totally go by moral, you are done.

You have a great day.
El Amigo
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