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Old 04-21-2009, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Norwood, MN
1,828 posts, read 3,280,118 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47 View Post
We didn't have a choice. Japan and Germany were allies. They were allies by convience, and should they have won the next war would have been between them, but declaring war on Japan made the declaration of war on Germany automatic.

And we were already fighting the Germans. There was lend lease. There was the actual battles in the atlantic with submarine war which came before war was ever declared. And we simply could NOT let Hitler have his way.

Its believed 12 million people of various undesirable status were coldly and within a system murdered because they were not acceptable. This was an evil thing we did know about though not publically. We simply made the choice to fight the war and end it by winning. What if we had remained an island and Hitler had taken England? What about us?

Once we entered the war, the Germans were doomed. We could continue to pour out resources against two enemies while both of them were running out. We did save the world from a dark age.
Yes, we did have a choice. If Germany had not declared war on us (I will never understand why they did), we would have had no business declaring war on them.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Mississauga
1,575 posts, read 1,707,712 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big daryle View Post
Yes, we did have a choice. If Germany had not declared war on us (I will never understand why they did), we would have had no business declaring war on them.
I still don't get why people think that Hitler would have stopped with Europe. He would have been a snowball getting bigger and bigger and would have consumed the entire world. Lets not forget that German U boats were floating around N.A and it would be naive to think they weren't there prior to American entrance to the war. I think the right choice was made by the U.S to help stop this menace who at the time was not in the same league as a North Korea today or Iraq pre Gulf war - he was a much bigger threat and was indeed a global threat. Personally, i'm glad we didn't give this irrational and maniacal lunatic the chance.

Last edited by mississauga75; 04-21-2009 at 06:54 PM..
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Old 04-22-2009, 01:41 AM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,193,238 times
Reputation: 4103
Quote:
Originally Posted by mississauga75 View Post
What about the chaos theory.
Chaos theory, by definition, means you surrender the illusion that you control anything. You are just one little ripple in the pond, which may move things in your own preferred direction, but probably won't.

Quote:
What happens across the world may end up impacting what happens in your own backyard. If you don't respond to some things preemptively, you run the risk of it growing and manisfesting into something that may actually threaten to overrun or enslave you and it may have the power to do that, because you let it. The key being to accurately assess the threat and deal with it ethically. The greater good may be served with preemptive military action and taking a stand, than doing nothing at all.
I have serious doubts that even Roosevelt, bastard though he was, would've dragged us into a war with Hitler if he had any idea of the horrors that communism would create in the following half-century as a direct result of his intervention.

We don't know 100% what the world would look like now if Hitler had beaten Stalin. But we do know that the world that followed Stalin beating Hitler consisted of half the world enslaved, a world of gulags and barbed wire and killing fields and starving Chinese mothers trading children so they wouldn't have to eat their own child's flesh to live. THAT was the world Roosevelt's deal with the devil in the Kremlin bought us. Are you going to seriously suppose a worse outcome had the other side won? If you have a real argument for that, I'll listen to it. If it's just the same old patriotic pap I heard in the fifth grade, don't bother.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:05 AM
 
Location: Viña del Mar, Chile
16,416 posts, read 25,206,536 times
Reputation: 16464
Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
Chaos theory, by definition, means you surrender the illusion that you control anything. You are just one little ripple in the pond, which may move things in your own preferred direction, but probably won't.



I have serious doubts that even Roosevelt, bastard though he was, would've dragged us into a war with Hitler if he had any idea of the horrors that communism would create in the following half-century as a direct result of his intervention.

We don't know 100% what the world would look like now if Hitler had beaten Stalin. But we do know that the world that followed Stalin beating Hitler consisted of half the world enslaved, a world of gulags and barbed wire and killing fields and starving Chinese mothers trading children so they wouldn't have to eat their own child's flesh to live. THAT was the world Roosevelt's deal with the devil in the Kremlin bought us. Are you going to seriously suppose a worse outcome had the other side won? If you have a real argument for that, I'll listen to it. If it's just the same old patriotic pap I heard in the fifth grade, don't bother.
sure why not, maybe if you could look down another possibility hitler would have become powerful enough to take over USA and send us to concentration camps also. The fact is, whether you agree with that possibility or not is useless, because he made the best possible decision he could at the time.

Its ridiculous how people judge a decision based on facts waaay after the incident and not on the decision that was made at the time with the information that was known.

Although, maybe if we all had this crystal ball you are talking about the world would be a better place
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:11 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,556,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
But we do know that the world that followed Stalin beating Hitler consisted of half the world enslaved, a world of gulags and barbed wire and killing fields and starving Chinese mothers trading children so they wouldn't have to eat their own child's flesh to live.
Are you really sure that Chang Kai Shek and the Czars would have found a slick shortcut to the 21-st century and avoided all that, without resorting to any Sukarno or Marcos nonsense? That no Chinese would have followed Mao, if they had cool Hitler as a figurehead? That Hitler (instead of the US) would have come up with enough flush toilets and Coca Cola bottling plants to modernize and enrich all of China, and not just Formosa? That Hitler and his successors would have had no reactionary political enemies to isolate behind barbed wire from the general population, or just let them walk around brewing factionism?

Last edited by jtur88; 04-22-2009 at 08:19 AM..
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Old 04-22-2009, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Mississauga
1,575 posts, read 1,707,712 times
Reputation: 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
Chaos theory, by definition, means you surrender the illusion that you control anything. You are just one little ripple in the pond, which may move things in your own preferred direction, but probably won't.



I have serious doubts that even Roosevelt, bastard though he was, would've dragged us into a war with Hitler if he had any idea of the horrors that communism would create in the following half-century as a direct result of his intervention.

We don't know 100% what the world would look like now if Hitler had beaten Stalin. But we do know that the world that followed Stalin beating Hitler consisted of half the world enslaved, a world of gulags and barbed wire and killing fields and starving Chinese mothers trading children so they wouldn't have to eat their own child's flesh to live. THAT was the world Roosevelt's deal with the devil in the Kremlin bought us. Are you going to seriously suppose a worse outcome had the other side won? If you have a real argument for that, I'll listen to it. If it's just the same old patriotic pap I heard in the fifth grade, don't bother.
Actually I think this response by Burglar09 was excellent an response to your commentary "sure why not, maybe if you could look down another possibility hitler would have become powerful enough to take over USA and send us to concentration camps also. The fact is, whether you agree with that possibility or not is useless, because he made the best possible decision he could at the time.

Its ridiculous how people judge a decision based on facts waaay after the incident and not on the decision that was made at the time with the information that was known."

The choice between the two at the time, I would have taken down Hitler. As cold as Stalin was he was calculated and to a degree predictable. Hitler was a dreamer and delusional. I'm not sure if at the time, Roosevelt would have been able to predict the evil role Stalin would play, but to the allied nations, the greater evil most certainly was Hitler at the time, he represented a more clear and present danger. As always though, you are thought provoking. I just feel you are the type that would sit on the fence endlessly debating a decision until it was too late.

Last edited by mississauga75; 04-22-2009 at 12:52 PM..
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Old 04-22-2009, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,193,238 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Are you really sure that Chang Kai Shek and the Czars would have found a slick shortcut to the 21-st century and avoided all that, without resorting to any Sukarno or Marcos nonsense? That no Chinese would have followed Mao, if they had cool Hitler as a figurehead? That Hitler (instead of the US) would have come up with enough flush toilets and Coca Cola bottling plants to modernize and enrich all of China, and not just Formosa? That Hitler and his successors would have had no reactionary political enemies to isolate behind barbed wire from the general population, or just let them walk around brewing factionism?
Of course not. Nothing I've said depends on any of those suppositions.
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Old 04-22-2009, 03:51 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,193,238 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mississauga75 View Post
I'm not sure if at the time, Roosevelt would have been able to predict the evil role Stalin would play
He didn't have to "predict" anything. Before Barbarossa, Stalin's body count was about ten times Hitler's.


Quote:
but to the allied nations, the greater evil most certainly was Hitler at the time, he represented a more clear and present danger. As always though, you are thought provoking. I just feel you are the type that would sit on the fence endlessly debating a decision until it was too late.
The allied nations weren't "allied" because of some nexus in the zodiac. They were allied because of specific strategic decisions made by specific men, who could've decided differently.
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Old 04-22-2009, 06:52 PM
 
Location: Mississauga
1,575 posts, read 1,707,712 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
He didn't have to "predict" anything. Before Barbarossa, Stalin's body count was about ten times Hitler's.




The allied nations weren't "allied" because of some nexus in the zodiac. They were allied because of specific strategic decisions made by specific men, who could've decided differently.
Ok but did these strategic decisions preserve the sovereignty of North America, the U.K and countless other Western European nations? Are you comfortable with the fact that you'd be sitting at home in Michigan as is, or potentially under a nazi flag? Or you really think Hitlers threat to the nations listed above was illusory, or that he'd see the light and become a pacifist? Personally as a Canadian, knowing that German Uboats laid mines off Halifax, sunk numerous merchant vessels under the CAD flag in support of the U.K (The King was our HofS)- I'm glad the strategic decisions that were made were made, even if they were double standards, we couldn't save the world, but we saved ourselves.
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Old 04-23-2009, 05:10 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,193,238 times
Reputation: 4103
Quote:
Originally Posted by mississauga75 View Post
Ok but did these strategic decisions preserve the sovereignty of North America, the U.K and countless other Western European nations? Are you comfortable with the fact that you'd be sitting at home in Michigan as is, or potentially under a nazi flag? Or you really think Hitlers threat to the nations listed above was illusory, or that he'd see the light and become a pacifist? Personally as a Canadian, knowing that German Uboats laid mines off Halifax, sunk numerous merchant vessels under the CAD flag in support of the U.K (The King was our HofS)- I'm glad the strategic decisions that were made were made, even if they were double standards, we couldn't save the world, but we saved ourselves.
I do not believe that an armed occupation of North America by Germany or Japan or a combination of the two, was ever a remote possibility.

After June '41, even Hitler's chance to invade the UK was probably down the pipes.
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