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Old 04-09-2009, 09:15 AM
 
Location: San Diego
2,518 posts, read 1,844,964 times
Reputation: 1298

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exitus Acta Probat View Post
A common refrain I often hear, regarding our participation in WWII is, "It's a good thing we went to Europe and defeated the National Socialists, or else we'd all be speaking German!"

As opposed to speaking non-Castilian Spanish? How is that any better? And how is it that being invaded by people from nations to the south any better than being invaded by Germans? Are Germans notorious for destroying health care systems, educational systems, public assistance programs, etc.?

Umm, you have no clue about history. First of all, we entered into WWII because the Japanese military attacked our Pacific Fleet on December 7, 1941, I'm not sure you've heard of Pearl Harbor. Second, we joined the war in Europe because Germany was ALLIED with Japan (The Axis Powers also included Italy). Thirdly, Germany was systematically bombarding Europe with MILITARY FORCE and was in the process of exterminating 10,000,000+ plus innocent civilians.

But you're just another anti-Mexican racist who doesn't care about facts. Mexico is not waging war on us, Mexico does not have concentration camps, Mexico is not building up their military and sending tanks into cities. You are delusional or just plain stupid if you are actually comparing WWII to immigration that mirrors the immigration waves when this country saw the influx of Irish, Eastern Europeans and Scandanavians. I can see Tijuana from my office window, I do not see any violence (outside of WHITE meth-heads) here in San Diego and I certainly haven't seen any Mexican tanks. GIVE ME A BREAK.

You should be ashamed of yourself for comparing the most legitimate war fought in America's history to your Xenophobic view on Immigration. My grandfather who fought for America and all my relatives who died in the Holocaust would be spinning in their graves if they saw what you wrote here.
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Old 04-09-2009, 09:56 AM
 
2,421 posts, read 6,214,154 times
Reputation: 3802
Quote:
Originally Posted by leftydan6 View Post
Umm, you have no clue about history. First of all, we entered into WWII because the Japanese military attacked our Pacific Fleet on December 7, 1941, I'm not sure you've heard of Pearl Harbor. Second, we joined the war in Europe because Germany was ALLIED with Japan (The Axis Powers also included Italy). Thirdly, Germany was systematically bombarding Europe with MILITARY FORCE and was in the process of exterminating 10,000,000+ plus innocent civilians.

But you're just another anti-Mexican racist who doesn't care about facts. Mexico is not waging war on us, Mexico does not have concentration camps, Mexico is not building up their military and sending tanks into cities. You are delusional or just plain stupid if you are actually comparing WWII to immigration that mirrors the immigration waves when this country saw the influx of Irish, Eastern Europeans and Scandanavians. I can see Tijuana from my office window, I do not see any violence (outside of WHITE meth-heads) here in San Diego and I certainly haven't seen any Mexican tanks. GIVE ME A BREAK.

You should be ashamed of yourself for comparing the most legitimate war fought in America's history to your Xenophobic view on Immigration. My grandfather who fought for America and all my relatives who died in the Holocaust would be spinning in their graves if they saw what you wrote here.

Thats becuase (To my limited knowledge at least?) Mexico dosen't have any Main Battle Tanks these days.


Last edited by Kangaroofarmer; 04-09-2009 at 10:19 AM..
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Old 04-09-2009, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,538,289 times
Reputation: 35864
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlchurch View Post
Wow, we deserved bombing because we were a colonial power too? Regardless of that, I see that you do acknowledge that the Japanese attacked us. That is an act of war under international law.
You missed nearly all my points. I said nothing about deserved. I said the Americans and the Japanese had equal natural entitlement to Pacific Islands, and it was the US that used force to take them first. I also said that the Japanese did not attack any place where there were Amerian civilian interests, and the purely military target they did attack was reasonably seen by them as a threat to their aspirations, which were the same as ours: Colonial domination of the Pacific.

International law can always be bent to serve the purposes of a warlike people who are itching for a fight. The Americans have, dozens of time since, done exactly what the Japanese did at Pearl Harbor---stage a military action abroad for the purposes of disarming an attack facility that we perceived as threatening. The aspirin factory in Sudan leaps to mind.

If we do it to them, it's their fault. If they do it to us, it's their fault.
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Old 04-09-2009, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Washington DC
5,915 posts, read 7,084,905 times
Reputation: 948
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
You missed nearly all my points. I said nothing about deserved. I said the Americans and the Japanese had equal natural entitlement to Pacific Islands, and it was the US that used force to take them first. I also said that the Japanese did not attack any place where there were Amerian civilian interests, and the purely military target they did attack was reasonably seen by them as a threat to their aspirations, which were the same as ours: Colonial domination of the Pacific.

International law can always be bent to serve the purposes of a warlike people who are itching for a fight. The Americans have, dozens of time since, done exactly what the Japanese did at Pearl Harbor---stage a military action abroad for the purposes of disarming an attack facility that we perceived as threatening. The aspirin factory in Sudan leaps to mind.

If we do it to them, it's their fault. If they do it to us, it's their fault.
I missed none of your points. They weren't that subtle. They were merely irrelevant. Japan asserted no right to the Hawaiian Island. You're inventing a fact situation which didn't exist. Regardless an attack on an American military force is an act of war. That's not bending International Law, it's black letter law. Japan chose to go to war with the United States. There was no ambiguity or misunderstanding on their part.

Aspirations are a complete, "So what." You may aspire to be rich and I may as well. That doesn't give you the right to rob me.
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Old 04-09-2009, 01:07 PM
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
10,306 posts, read 9,975,609 times
Reputation: 9077
Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
Both the war with Japan and with Germany were the result of a long string of provocations of them, by us.
Hmmm, Poland, Denmark, Norway, France, North African countries, Greece, Yugoslavia, etc...

We provoked Hitler? We were the aggressors? So we took those countries? Damn it. Not only is history recorded incorrectly, but my grandparents and aunts and uncles were delusional when they used to tell me the stories of that time they LIVED through, and FOUGHT through (one of them even on the side of Germany).

I'd have to say that popping off counties one by one is quite provocative, wouldn't you? problem is... we didn't DO that. Hitler did.

I'd hypothesize that the reason for your rather ridiculous statement is that it is the rehearsed stance taken by those sharing your views--the America sucks crowd.

The great thing about your arguments, my friend, is that they are about 95% emotion and name calling. And as such, it's rather easy to counter it if one can ignore the personal insults and look to the substance of the argument--which is nil.

Why were we in the Philippines? Because we kicked Spain's *ss and took it. Should we have been in the Philippines? In my estimation, no, not really. But until you can post documented proof of the death camps (a la Auschwitz and Buchenwald) we had in the Philippines which took millions of lives, I think most readers, including myself, will consider your claims to be fabricated. I've actually been to the Philippines. There are no museums and memorials there established in the name of the millions of citizens that American Einsatzgruppe exterminated (as there are in Germany for the millions of innocent people exterminated by the Nazi non-Waffen SS/Gestapo/Einsatzgruppe machine). The reason for the lack of Philippine death camps memorials is it never HAPPENED. It only happened in your 'hate America playbook."

This all goes back to extremism and binary thinking. If something isn't as white and pure as a snowflake in virgin air, it's automatically the filthy blackened spawn of Satan himself. That's the mentality of a large part of our society. And it's very scary to me. It's the same kind of thinking that has caused tragedies such as the holocaust. Is everything America has done and will do Yankee Doodle Dandy perfect? Hell no. Not even close. Is everything America has done or will do blight-of-the-world evil? No way. If you think it is, there is something wrong with you. One of the reasons you can plunk your butt down and debate these things is because you have that right here. In another time and place, you may well have ended up burning at the stake, latched into a guillotine, or in a death camp incinerator for even a hint of dissension.

I've come to the conclusion that extremism on both sides of the spectrum is about 99% responsible for the worst tragedies in world history.

Okay... now feel free to pick any part of the message I have written, get all emotional, and attack me personally. That keeps the substance of your argument lacking, as it does your credibility; any argumentation/rhetoric 101 class will cover that on day one.

Last edited by ChrisC; 04-09-2009 at 01:29 PM..
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Old 04-09-2009, 08:13 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,191,291 times
Reputation: 4103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Knocker View Post
Its not easy to get me into a fight. But a good way would be to start beating my friends to a pulp & threatening me.
When did Hitler threaten us?
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Old 04-09-2009, 08:20 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,191,291 times
Reputation: 4103
Quote:
Originally Posted by leftydan6 View Post
Thirdly, Germany was systematically bombarding Europe with MILITARY FORCE and was in the process of exterminating 10,000,000+ plus innocent civilians.
Which civilians and what extermination? Nobody was being "exterminated" systematically until after Wannsea, i.e. AFTER we entered the war--and such war crimes and massacres and in particular aerial bombing of civilians as were already occurring were occurring on both sides. Many of the people of Eastern Europe rallied to Hitler's cause because he presented the possibility of destroying Stalin, a opportunity they would've been crazy not to seize if they cared about their own countries.
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Old 04-09-2009, 08:24 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,538,289 times
Reputation: 35864
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlchurch View Post

Aspirations are a complete, "So what." You may aspire to be rich and I may as well. That doesn't give you the right to rob me.

I didn't say "aspiration". I said "aspirin factory". Was that an act of war? Did that oblige and compel Sudan to go to war not just against the USA, but against everybody else that they disagreed with?

We had warships in the middle of the Pacific Ocean aimed at Japan, and Japan defended itself with a pre-emptive attack, and you call that a reason for us to go to war against a country in Europe?
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Old 04-09-2009, 08:40 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,191,291 times
Reputation: 4103
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
Hmmm, Poland, Denmark, Norway, France, North African countries, Greece, Yugoslavia, etc...

We provoked Hitler? We were the aggressors? So we took those countries?
What in the hell are you talking about? Do you know what "false alternative" means? Do you know what a non sequitur is?

Quote:
I'd have to say that popping off counties one by one is quite provocative, wouldn't you? problem is... we didn't DO that. Hitler did.
It's provocative, if you're one of the countries being popped off. It's not, if you're a well-tooled military and industrial superpower across the ocean.

Quote:
I'd hypothesize that the reason for your rather ridiculous statement is that it is the rehearsed stance taken by those sharing your views--the America sucks crowd.
America does suck, but I'd hardly say I find myself part of a crowd when I say so.

Quote:
The great thing about your arguments, my friend, is that they are about 95% emotion and name calling. And as such, it's rather easy to counter it if one can ignore the personal insults and look to the substance of the argument--which is nil.
Here's the substance: America should not enter wars unless we are attacked. That's not an argument, it's a principle, and since you don't share it, the argument is basically moot.

Quote:
Why were we in the Philippines? Because we kicked Spain's *ss and took it. Should we have been in the Philippines? In my estimation, no, not really.
Gee, how wonderfully generous of you. We had as much right to be in the Phillipines as Japan had to be in Nanking.

Quote:
But until you can post documented proof of the death camps (a la Auschwitz and Buchenwald) we had in the Philippines which took millions of lives, I think most readers, including myself, will consider your claims to be fabricated.
What claim, that we engaged in genocide? If you tell me where the line is drawn between massacre and genocide, we can debate it. I'll concede we didn't go as far as Hitler, but we went as far as Saddam Hussein (don't bring up the irrelevant distraction that he used gas--dead is dead) or Slobodan Milosevic, and nobody would jump down my throat for calling them "genocidal."

Quote:
The reason for the lack of Philippine death camps memorials is it never HAPPENED. It only happened in your 'hate America playbook."
Nice tactic to put words in my mouth I never said, like "death camps." Might fool some people.

Quote:
This all goes back to extremism and binary thinking. If something isn't as white and pure as a snowflake in virgin air, it's automatically the filthy blackened spawn of Satan himself. That's the mentality of a large part of our society. And it's very scary to me. It's the same kind of thinking that has caused tragedies such as the holocaust.
It's also the same kind of thinking that led pilots who'd never laid eyes on a German or Japanese to burn entire cities off the map.

Quote:
Is everything America has done and will do Yankee Doodle Dandy perfect? Hell no. Not even close. Is everything America has done or will do blight-of-the-world evil? No way.
No, but when, for example, we burn a town in a country we have no right to be in in the first place, I think it's as evil as a German doing the same. And the fact that they're doing it not only does NOT justify us doing it, it does NOT even justify forcing American kids into uniform to risk death or hideous maiming to keep THEM from doing it.

Quote:
One of the reasons you can plunk your butt down and debate these things is because you have that right here. In another time and place, you may well have ended up burning at the stake, latched into a guillotine, or in a death camp incinerator for even a hint of dissension.
I wouldn't have been killed for a "hint of dissension" in most times and places, contrary to our constantly self-fellating national script. On the other hand, I would've been locked up here as recently as 1973 for refusing to murder people I never met.

Quote:
I've come to the conclusion that extremism on both sides of the spectrum is about 99% responsible for the worst tragedies in world history.
I don't. I think a combination of rationalization, moral corner-cutting, hypocrisy, and above all, believing your own country's propaganda, is a lot more responsible for the world's misery than any extremist theory on its own.
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Old 04-09-2009, 09:56 PM
 
5,532 posts, read 5,714,122 times
Reputation: 3146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exitus Acta Probat View Post
A common refrain I often hear, regarding our participation in WWII is, "It's a good thing we went to Europe and defeated the National Socialists, or else we'd all be speaking German!"

As opposed to speaking non-Castilian Spanish? How is that any better? And how is it that being invaded by people from nations to the south any better than being invaded by Germans? Are Germans notorious for destroying health care systems, educational systems, public assistance programs, etc.?

Interesting OP. To tell the truth, I am not sure I understand anything. What Spanish? What health care systems?
Some very interesting posters as well. Some (supposedly Americans) compare US to Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. We had similar interests, not much difference here...
Are we living on the same planet?
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