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Old 04-09-2009, 10:02 PM
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
10,311 posts, read 9,975,609 times
Reputation: 9081

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Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
Which civilians and what extermination? Nobody was being "exterminated" systematically until after Wannsea, i.e. AFTER we entered the war.
Poland, 1939 - Einsatzgruppen killed Poles belonging to the upper class and intelligentsia--elimination of the groups most clearly identified with the Polish national identity. ""Whatever we find in the shape of an upper class in Poland will be liquidated," Hitler had ordered.

Russia, 1941 - Closely following German Wehrmacht and Waffen SS combat divisions during invasion of the Soviet Union, SS Einsatzgruppen's main assignment: to kill on a much larger scale than in Poland, in particular the Soviet Communist Party commisars and Soviet Jews. After July 1941, they increasingly engaged in the mass murders of the local Jews.

Prior to December, 1941 - Einsatzgruppe A in the Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania ordered to systematically exterminate all Jews in the area.

RESULT: Estimated murder of more than 1.5 million Jews, Soviet communists and prisoners of war. This was prior to US entry into the war.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUOTE: "However, the method of shooting the Jews in pits was found to be not efficient enough, so in late 1941 the Nazis decided to establish purpose-built camps for systematic murder in gas chambers. The details of the operation were discussed at Wannsee Conference in January 1942"

This in itself shoots holes in your statement that systematic murder was not being carried out prior to the Wannsee Conference. Wannsee was in part to discuss more efficient means of mass extermination, which means it had been an ongoing activity prior to that time.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Here's more:

September 3, 1941: First gassings of prisoners occur in Auschwitz I. The SS tests Zyklon B gas by killing 600 Soviet prisoners of war and 250 other ill or weak prisoners.

Chełmno extermination camp, the first extermination camp, opened in 1941 to kill the Jews of the Łódź Ghetto and the Warthegau.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Conclusion:

All of this is pre US entry into the war and pre Wannsee (early 1942). I would say that this body of evidence clearly shows 'systematic extermination' prior to that time, wouldn't you? (of course, there is more and all of the above is documented with citable references)
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Old 04-10-2009, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Washington DC
5,915 posts, read 7,084,905 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I didn't say "aspiration". I said "aspirin factory". Was that an act of war? Did that oblige and compel Sudan to go to war not just against the USA, but against everybody else that they disagreed with?
Yes it was an act of war.

Do you not even read your own posts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88
and the purely military target they did attack was reasonably seen by them as a threat to their aspirations
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
We had warships in the middle of the Pacific Ocean aimed at Japan, and Japan defended itself with a pre-emptive attack, and you call that a reason for us to go to war against a country in Europe?
We had warships in the Pacific since well before Japan was an industrialized nation. The composition of our Pacific Fleet was static, not increasing. We were not threatening Japan with military might and our forces were not at some heightened state of alert. There was no rational basis for a preemptive strike. It didn't preempt any action on our part.

We went to war in Europe because Germany declared war on us after Pearl Harbor. Germans then promptly initiated unrestricted submarine warfare against coastal American shipping.
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Old 04-10-2009, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,538,289 times
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The first law of civilization, which is useful to know when the motorcycle gang walks into a bar, is that if somebody declares war on you, it is not necessary for you to fight. You can walk away.

You are completely wrong about the history of the Pacific Fleet. According to Wikipedia:

Until May 1940, this unit was stationed on the west coast of the United States. During the summer of that year, as part of the U.S. response to Japanese expansionism, it was instructed to take an "advanced" position at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii.
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Old 04-10-2009, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Washington DC
5,915 posts, read 7,084,905 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
The first law of civilization, which is useful to know when the motorcycle gang walks into a bar, is that if somebody declares war on you, it is not necessary for you to fight. You can walk away.
So now we are at fault because we fought back. When does one blame the Japaneses?
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Old 04-10-2009, 11:46 AM
 
Location: England
3,243 posts, read 3,019,631 times
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I am amazed that so many americans don't know that Germany & Italy declared war on the United States on 11th December 1941.
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Old 04-10-2009, 12:38 PM
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
10,311 posts, read 9,975,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albion View Post
I am amazed that so many americans don't know that Germany & Italy declared war on the United States on 11th December 1941.
That's the kind of 'selective knowledge' a good segment of our society holds when history is cherry picked and rewritten for the skool kiddies.

Hadn't you heard: we were the a** holes and the fascists were just some good ol' boys sittin' on the back porch playing backgammon. We went to war with them because they were doing nothing particularly wrong and they had no military aspirations (neither has anyone else through history, besides the US). It's just that FDR was having a bad day. He hadn't slept well that night and woke that morning with a rash and a pounding headache, so he decided to incinerate Europe and Japan to make him feel better about himself. And of course, once we defeated Germany, Italy, Japan, and the rest of the axis powers, we (being an imperial power) have kept those countries ever since for ourselves. Germany, Japan, Italy, etc, are all holdings of the US Empire right now. Didn't you know that? We run Bushwitz death camps in these places--disguised as adult toy factories.
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Old 04-10-2009, 02:11 PM
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
32,107 posts, read 39,170,046 times
Reputation: 40515
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
The first law of civilization, which is useful to know when the motorcycle gang walks into a bar, is that if somebody declares war on you, it is not necessary for you to fight. You can walk away.

You are completely wrong about the history of the Pacific Fleet. According to Wikipedia:

Until May 1940, this unit was stationed on the west coast of the United States. During the summer of that year, as part of the U.S. response to Japanese expansionism, it was instructed to take an "advanced" position at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii.

You don't walk away from bikers, they'll drag you back. Ever see a beat down? I have. Not pretty. Guy tried to walk away, former member.
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Old 04-10-2009, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,538,289 times
Reputation: 35864
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlchurch View Post
So now we are at fault because we fought back. When does one blame the Japaneses?
We didn't fight "back" against Germany---there was no fight until we went there.

Blame the Japanese or making us go to war in Germany? The same way we blame Niger for making us go to war in Iraq. We're Americans. It is our patriotic duty to blame everybody else for everything that happens.
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Old 04-10-2009, 02:58 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,538,289 times
Reputation: 35864
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
You don't walk away from bikers, they'll drag you back. Ever see a beat down? I have. Not pretty. Guy tried to walk away, former member.
I've never been in a fight in my life, but I've walked away from plenty of them.
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Old 04-10-2009, 05:27 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,191,291 times
Reputation: 4103
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I've never been in a fight in my life, but I've walked away from plenty of them.
Amen to that. This "you can't walk away from a fight"--"you can't negotiate with people who want to destroy you"--"they'll follow us home"-- is all the same old recycled American puke.
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