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Old 04-24-2009, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
13,155 posts, read 9,240,620 times
Reputation: 9053

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
So, the Pursuit of Happiness is a composite of private property and other sundry rights, and not strictly limited to only personal property rights. Did I ever say anything to the contrary?
Yes, by your misuse of terminology.
A. private property is absolutely owned.
B. personal property is held with qualified ownership.
C. private property rights are secured by compact.
D. personal property privileges are subject to government.
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Old 04-24-2009, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Tinker AFB
28 posts, read 40,373 times
Reputation: 22
Default Government

Quote:
Originally Posted by MorningCalm View Post
I'm a strong believer that we should be allowed to govern ourselves but to a certain point. After that if things get out of control and we cannot make a sensible decision then I think that a higher party/group should make that decision for us. I know that our fore-fathers died defending our freedom..but I don't think they had they had in mind people wearing shirts like "F AMERICA" to go on walking our streets.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that is I think a little goverment intervention maybe what we need in today's U.S. climate. The lack of common sense sometimes needs to be shoved down our throats.

Let's view this from a much more simple point of view.

I am an organism. A homo sapien. I can run here, jog there, walk over there, hunt, gather, swim, (whatever else us humans like to do).

Governments come into play. Now the government says I have the right to say whatever I want. But...wait, I could do that before any government existed anyways. The government says: no you can't eat this type of food. You can't hunt here. You can't camp here. You'll have to get a license to do this. Hold on, what??? Humans have been doing these things for thousands of years before any complex type of goverment came about.

The point is that the governemnt exists FOR the people to SERVE the people. The PEOPLE should have all of the power. The more dumb Americans who blindly support their nation's actions REGAURDLESS of what their nation does, the more powerful and corrupt our government becomes.

The U.S. government's sole purpose is to ensure our rights and protect us. Of course before any govenment existed you could do whatever you wanted anyways. But in today's world I opt for the government that tramples my rights/instincts/ability to live as my ancestors have lived, the least.

Sure the modern world is safer, but I can't sprint after a turkey while eating lettuce naked can I? I'd be arrested. I'd much rather live free and risk being eaten by a wild animal than live under any government. What's the purpose of life if all of our evolutionary instincts are stifled and kept in check? Might as well just be in a vegetative state.
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Old 04-24-2009, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,734,744 times
Reputation: 35899
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
Yes, by your misuse of terminology.
A. private property is absolutely owned.
B. personal property is held with qualified ownership.
C. private property rights are secured by compact.
D. personal property privileges are subject to government.
You're going to have to be a little bit more specific. Are those four statements paraphrasing what I erroneously said, or are they your corrections to what I said?
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Old 04-24-2009, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,734,744 times
Reputation: 35899
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWC760 View Post
I'd much rather live free and risk being eaten by a wild animal than live under any government. What's the purpose of life if all of our evolutionary instincts are stifled and kept in check? Might as well just be in a vegetative state.
Your call. Watch "Survivorman" for some tips. However, the majority of people, the "We the People" in the large font, feel more comfortable in an orderly and predictable society, where some bozo can't come and dig a drainage canal across what people had gotten used to using as the road to town. Acting as a majority, we the people have regulated your magalomanical canal. We let you guys sprint after all the Passenger Pigeons, and look what you did to them. We let you cut all the trees. We let you throw all your toxic trash in the rivers. We let you exterminate the buffalo so you could run cattle. We let you kill the Indians. We let you drain the wetlands. We let you burn billions of tons of toxic tobacco in children's homes, and paint them with lead and stuff them with asbestos. We, let you build box store after mall in the open spaces you cherish sprinting naked in so much. Well, we're mad as hell and not going to let you run with your evolutionary instincts unstifled anymore.

You haven't heard about "people", have you. They're the rest of us. They outvoted you. You hate it when that happens. You want everything to be your way, and to hell with everybody else.

It is an insult to the intelligence of every member of this forum to try to imply that Clan of the Cave Bear represented the apex of human civilization, and the genius of the Jefferson and Madison and Locke was that they wanted to go back to that, but failed to express themselves carefully enough.

Last edited by jtur88; 04-24-2009 at 03:02 PM..
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Old 04-24-2009, 08:45 PM
 
Location: Tinker AFB
28 posts, read 40,373 times
Reputation: 22
Default No

Quote:
Your call. Watch "Survivorman" for some tips. However, the majority of people, the "We the People" in the large font, feel more comfortable in an orderly and predictable society, where some bozo can't come and dig a drainage canal across what people had gotten used to using as the road to town. Acting as a majority, we the people have regulated your magalomanical canal. We let you guys sprint after all the Passenger Pigeons, and look what you did to them. We let you cut all the trees. We let you throw all your toxic trash in the rivers. We let you exterminate the buffalo so you could run cattle. We let you kill the Indians. We let you drain the wetlands. We let you burn billions of tons of toxic tobacco in children's homes, and paint them with lead and stuff them with asbestos. We, let you build box store after mall in the open spaces you cherish sprinting naked in so much. Well, we're mad as hell and not going to let you run with your evolutionary instincts unstifled anymore.
WTF??? I don't know what you are smoking, but I didn't do ANY of those things. All I said is that I want to live like my ancestors did 20,000+ Years ago. A simple life of hunting and gathering and finding a woman and making a family with her without any other humans interfering(Government). I don't know WHERE THE HELL you got all of that from. I was merely making examples of something simple that our ancestors could do whenever they wanted, but modern humans would be put in jail for doing.

Quote:
You haven't heard about "people", have you. They're the rest of us. They outvoted you. You hate it when that happens. You want everything to be your way, and to hell with everybody else.
Yes, I am describing what I want. I never said I was going to FORCE IT on anyone else.



Quote:
It is an insult to the intelligence of every member of this forum to try to imply that Clan of the Cave Bear represented the apex of human civilization, and the genius of the Jefferson and Madison and Locke was that they wanted to go back to that, but failed to express themselves carefully enough.
I NEVER said primitivism was the apex of civilization OR the ideals of our foudning fathers, did you even read my post? I said in my post that I actually OPTed for this government given the modern scope of everything and I did so by enlisting in the armed forces, so **** off.
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Old 04-24-2009, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,057 posts, read 29,774,281 times
Reputation: 10455
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWC760 View Post
The U.S. government's sole purpose is to ensure our rights and protect us. Of course before any govenment existed you could do whatever you wanted anyways. But in today's world I opt for the government that tramples my rights/instincts/ability to live as my ancestors have lived, the least.
When you do whatever you want, the unspoken assertion is that everyone else has the same privilege. That's called anarchy, and I'm not quite sure a nation of 275 million is best served by anarchy. That makes government a good thing. (Less apathy from the citizens, and it would be even better!)

You also throw that word "rights" around rather freely. You, or rather, I should say we as citizens of this particular country, have the rights our government guarantees us. If the government didn't guarantee them, we wouldn't have them.

As to your last sentence, I'm a little confused. You say you opt for the government that tramples your rights to live as your ancestors lived? Why would you opt for something like that, particularly in a republic where you have the right to change things? Or did you just use the wrong word?
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Old 04-24-2009, 09:56 PM
 
Location: The Shires
2,257 posts, read 1,727,589 times
Reputation: 1050
Ultimately, to achieve total freedom, we as individuals must learn to evolve in terms of becoming far less greedy, far less hateful and far more tolerant. Capitalism, in its purest form would work perfectly, if only human beings weren't so inherently greedy and self-serving. Unfortunately, if we lived in a laissez-faire type society, there would be anarchy and chaos, because there would be few rules and people would revert to their own morals and standards (some people have good morals, while others don't).

Until the day that the human race evolves to that next level, we're basically stuck with the status quo. Honestly, I would rather have at least some sense of law and order, as opposed to living in a fragmented "dog eat dog" society of individuals, all out to take it all, regardless of who gets hurt in the process.
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Old 04-25-2009, 12:05 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,734,744 times
Reputation: 35899
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWC760 View Post
I didn't do ANY of those things. All I said is that I want to live like my ancestors did 20,000+ Years ago.

I NEVER said primitivism was the apex of civilization f.
I never said you personally exterminated the passenger pigeons in the early 19th century. I said that YOU (plural, collectively) were given the right to, and you did it together in your infinite wisdom.

Explain how you would rather live in a style that is not the apex of civilization? Unless you can explain how living at a sub-civilized level is preferable, you have contradicted yourself. And anybody who accuses me of using mind-alering substances and then tells me to **** off gets put on my ignore list. You think soldiers have a natural right to talk like that to civilians? Good bye.
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Old 04-25-2009, 12:24 AM
 
Location: Tinker AFB
28 posts, read 40,373 times
Reputation: 22
Default Yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred314X View Post
When you do whatever you want, the unspoken assertion is that everyone else has the same privilege. That's called anarchy, and I'm not quite sure a nation of 275 million is best served by anarchy. That makes government a good thing. (Less apathy from the citizens, and it would be even better!)

You also throw that word "rights" around rather freely. You, or rather, I should say we as citizens of this particular country, have the rights our government guarantees us.

As to your last sentence, I'm a little confused. You say you opt for the government that tramples your rights to live as your ancestors lived? Why would you opt for something like that, particularly in a republic where you have the right to change things? Or did you just use the wrong word?
Yes, my post was rather unclear.

All I am saying is this:

If I had a choice I would rather be living like my ancestors did 10,000 years ago. However since I live in modern times; obviously it's impossible to live like that now.

This is off topic, if you don't want to read just skip it:

Here's a few reasons why I would want to live like our ancestor's did:

1. Instincts- we've been evolving for millions of years and all of a sudden (within the last 10,000 years) civilization(government) comes into play. We're not ants, we don't have a hive mind and we don't really care about some other guy just because he is also part of my civilization other than, how can I profit from him.

2. Modern diet- is horrible, for the most part. This is evident, just look at all of the obese in the U.S. today.

3. Leisure time- I don't want to work 10-12 hours a day to support a society I don't even care about in the first place. I'd rather hunt and forage for my own food in my own small tribe and spend time with those I love; not in Iraq.

4. I know it is much more dangerous and I would gladly accept those risks.

</off topic>

ANYWAYS...

I opt to live/serve the United States BECAUSE I can live a decent life here. It is the least of all evils, if I may. It oppresses me the least. It's not perfect, but overall the best we have so far. Hope I am making myself clear, I am NOT an Anarchist. That simply does not work.



Quote:
If the government didn't guarantee them, we wouldn't have them.
I think you're missing the point. You don't need someone to tell you that you can go ahead and speak, move, run, whatever you want to do in such a primitive world.
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Old 04-25-2009, 12:28 AM
 
Location: Tinker AFB
28 posts, read 40,373 times
Reputation: 22
Default See above

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I never said you personally exterminated the passenger pigeons in the early 19th century. I said that YOU (plural, collectively) were given the right to, and you did it together in your infinite wisdom.

Explain how you would rather live in a style that is not the apex of civilization? Unless you can explain how living at a sub-civilized level is preferable, you have contradicted yourself.
It is preferable for me. It is my opinion. See above post.
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