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Old 04-14-2009, 06:05 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,402,860 times
Reputation: 47449

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without law and order we are crocodiles.
its not working.
personal liberties aka civil rights are trumping law and order too much.

Last edited by Huckleberry3911948; 04-14-2009 at 06:49 PM..
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Old 04-14-2009, 06:21 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,755,085 times
Reputation: 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by MorningCalm View Post
I'm a strong believer that we should be allowed to govern ourselves but to a certain point. After that if things get out of control and we cannot make a sensible decision then I think that a higher party/group should make that decision for us. I know that our fore-fathers died defending our freedom..but I don't think they had they had in mind people wearing shirts like "F AMERICA" to go on walking our streets.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that is I think a little goverment intervention maybe what we need in today's U.S. climate. The lack of common sense sometimes needs to be shoved down our throats.
For the sake of argument let me say I go along with you on this one. Now, who is going to dictate how much and how far should the government interfere?
Whose standard are we going to follow?

Why not provide and example of how the Government could interfere. Prohibit t-shirts that have "F AMERICA"?

Next, do you think that at the time of our founding father there were not people who may not have worn clothing expressing themselves with displeasure of our country. There were and you can do research and look at cartoons about issues. As open minded as our founding fathers were, at times they tried to suppress speech and other rights and if I believe the Supreme Court started to stablish itself making some landmark decision that set the course of our country.

You have a great day.
El Amigo
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Old 04-14-2009, 06:28 PM
 
604 posts, read 1,050,556 times
Reputation: 217
No, I don't.
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Old 04-14-2009, 06:33 PM
 
6,940 posts, read 8,875,359 times
Reputation: 7790
The USSR is GONE, people. They've gone capitalist in Russia. Just before the global economic meltdown, Russia was the best place on earth to become a millionaire -- they have nothing but ground-floor operations there. And now even the millionaires there are back to the ground floor again. So there's no competition. But their rights are not quite as wide-open as ours are yet. Give them time.
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Old 04-14-2009, 06:39 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,755,085 times
Reputation: 2524
As far as rights is concerned, if we have lost rights it is partly because us the people have allowed it.

Many of the laws that we now have started not by some government individual. If you look closely at many of the oppressive laws we may have, they were initiated by some group that feels the government needs to interfere. Example: drug laws got started by "concerned" citizens that pushed for them and some legislators went along.
A very clear example was the prohibition. Look at history and you will see how groups across the nation banded and pushed congress to pass an ammendment. They did and guess what. An ammendment has to be approved by the states. In other words it was us who did it.

So when people complain how the government this and that, remember we have allowed a lot of this and that. So to a great degree it is our fault consequently it serves us well.

Now, look at the present state of the nation. We have become a nation that has elected legislators that pass laws bailing out so many different sectors. This include Bush and Obama. Both have gone along with an attitude we as nation have, the government has to interfere just as the OP is saying.

You have a great day.
El Amigo
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Old 04-14-2009, 06:46 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,755,085 times
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As far as the right to have arms, I believe we are entitled to have them.

From what I have read the 2nd Ammendment is the ammendment was poorly written as some scholars have expressed. Both sides of the issue have expressed some very good points to support their views.

If I recall correctly the Supreme Court has not clearly settled that issue. It seems they avoid making a decision that settles it for good.

From my standpoint, I may trust the police to do their best to protect me but the reality is that they cannot be right outside my home 24/7. I beleive it is my right to make sure I can protect my family until the police arrives. If someone does not like guns, do not buy them.

You have a great day.
El Amigo
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Old 04-14-2009, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,538,289 times
Reputation: 35864
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
If someone does not like guns, do not buy them.
If someone does not like burning plastic trash, don't burn it.

My friends and acquaintances in Singapore like it just fine. They believe people have a right to live in an orderly society, and they have one. They don't get to elect anybody, but they trust the government officials to make life orderly and affluent for Singaporeans, and so far, that is exactly what they have done. Of course there are people who disagree with the government, and of course some who would agitate for change at the risk of their lives or liberty, but there is that in every country, even Norway. Singapore deals summarily with them, and everybody gets on with their very productive and fulfilled lives. It's a highly diverse society, and everybody gets along just fine.

Before you submit your Proof that Singapore is a terrible place, I will announce your two anecdotes and save yo the trouble.

A spoiled rich American kid was spanked for vandalizing a car.

They banned chewing gum.

There.

Last edited by jtur88; 04-14-2009 at 07:03 PM..
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Old 04-14-2009, 06:57 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,755,085 times
Reputation: 2524
I have the priviledge of being in the Army for the last 30 years. In the last 30 years I have been in about 25 countries and about 30 states.

My observation is that we do have many rights and we are one of the freest nations in the world. I do believe that many people have this "the grass is greener on the other side" perception. However, if many people that complain we have no rights I wish they go to some of the countries I have been and compare. We are just a different generation that I believe we have lost appreciation for what we have. I am not saying we could do better, we could. We are not perfect. However, I this thread reminded of the pictures of the blacks returning from WWII. They knew how the U.S. treated them and yet as soon as they got of the airplane or the boat they knelt and kiss this land despite the discrimination that awaited them.
Now, I also compare when the founding of our nation women could not vote, black were slaves, etc. Our nation has come a long ways. Not very long ago in my generation blacks still had to use separate rest rooms. Now, gays are making ways and eventually get the recognition of the rights they are entitled in my opinion.

Does anyone here is afraid to say our government is all screwed up because you could get thrown in jail?

You have great day.
El Amigo
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:14 PM
 
11,961 posts, read 12,431,767 times
Reputation: 2772
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
without law and order we are crocodiles.
its not working.
personal liberties aka civil rights are trumping law and order too much.
When you own your house, the details of rent you took for granted bite you in the behind. The grass needs mowing, the fuse box needs another circuit, and the pipe breaks on christmas. Being in the habit of calling the landlord doesn't work anymore, unless you want to commiserate about plumbers on overtime.

Freedom isn't free, but what is the price tag for no freedom?
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Old 04-14-2009, 09:13 PM
Itz
 
714 posts, read 1,859,225 times
Reputation: 879
Quote:
Originally Posted by MorningCalm View Post
I'm a strong believer that we should be allowed to govern ourselves but to a certain point. After that if things get out of control and we cannot make a sensible decision then I think that a higher party/group should make that decision for us. I know that our fore-fathers died defending our freedom..but I don't think they had they had in mind people wearing shirts like "F AMERICA" to go on walking our streets.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that is I think a little goverment intervention maybe what we need in today's U.S. climate. The lack of common sense sometimes needs to be shoved down our throats.
Heres the problem I see with this train of thought... whos to say what is a lack of common sense? you? me?
do you want the thought police to come in your house telling you what to do, how to do it, when to do it? Maybe they have a sense as to how warm/cool your home should be?
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