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Old 04-14-2009, 11:04 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,189,582 times
Reputation: 4103

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
personal liberties aka civil rights are trumping law and order too much.
Feel free to give up as many of your civil rights as you wish.

Try to give up mine, and we're going to tangle, in a major way.
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Old 04-15-2009, 09:37 AM
 
3,566 posts, read 4,489,505 times
Reputation: 1846
I find the 2nd Ammendment argument funny. I really do. I especially love it when it is about defending oneself from the government or if need be for another revolution.
I'm thinking, have you seen our military? You don't stand a chance. I have a friend of mine, ok...an acquaintence, and my favorite thing to do is to point out just how far he would get. Sounds like suicide by cop at a whole 'nother level. The dreams of martyrs.

At any rate. Every nation-state and even those that are not recognized has critics. Every single one of them. This needs to happen. Especially foreign policy. And yeah, we have lost a lot of rights.

I don't buy into that someone died for my rights.
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Old 04-15-2009, 09:39 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
13,115 posts, read 9,199,435 times
Reputation: 8988
Quote:
Originally Posted by MorningCalm View Post
I'm a strong believer that we should be allowed to govern ourselves but to a certain point. After that if things get out of control and we cannot make a sensible decision then I think that a higher party/group should make that decision for us. I know that our fore-fathers died defending our freedom..but I don't think they had they had in mind people wearing shirts like "F AMERICA" to go on walking our streets.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that is I think a little goverment intervention maybe what we need in today's U.S. climate. The lack of common sense sometimes needs to be shoved down our throats.
You are making the common mistake of using inalienable rights yardstick to measure the privileged socialist slaves.
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Old 04-15-2009, 10:05 AM
 
3,566 posts, read 4,489,505 times
Reputation: 1846
What privileged socialist slaves?
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Old 04-15-2009, 10:23 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,523,609 times
Reputation: 35864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandamonium View Post
I'm thinking, have you seen our military? You don't stand a chance. .
Like the Iraqis don't stand a chance against our military,either.
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Old 04-15-2009, 10:31 AM
 
3,566 posts, read 4,489,505 times
Reputation: 1846
They didn't.
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Old 04-15-2009, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Pensacola, Fl
656 posts, read 951,378 times
Reputation: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
Just out of curiosity: tanks, troops, and planes from another country start leveling your city. What you gonna do? Offer them cake and ice cream?
Why yes, I will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
We all think we are so safe here in 'fortress America.'
I don't think we are safe, I just think we stick our nose where it doesn't belong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
No country has ever been safe.
Not saying one has.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
That includes this one. I'd love to live in Utopia; but it doesn't exist. Personally, I would be willing to die resisting anyone who wishes to deprive me, my family, or my community of reciprocal free agency. Give me liberty or give me death; remember that one? Or have they stricken it from the history books and replaced it with something about sheeple?
No, history has told us that every war we have ever been in has been done out of our meddling. Ever heard of backlash? Applies in each case. Fighting for democracy is a farce. Fighting for money, power, and land in the name of democracy? Not so much.
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Old 04-15-2009, 12:31 PM
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
10,295 posts, read 9,970,295 times
Reputation: 9067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandamonium View Post
I find the 2nd Ammendment argument funny. I really do. I especially love it when it is about defending oneself from the government or if need be for another revolution.
I'm thinking, have you seen our military? You don't stand a chance..
It's not so hard to understand, really. Some of us would die fighting tyranny before accepting it. Doesn't really matter whether it's a rifle or a steak knife (assuming the gun control guys don't go after those, too).
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Old 04-15-2009, 12:47 PM
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
10,295 posts, read 9,970,295 times
Reputation: 9067
Quote:
Originally Posted by kb09 View Post
No, history has told us that every war we have ever been in has been done out of our meddling. Ever heard of backlash? Applies in each case. Fighting for democracy is a farce. Fighting for money, power, and land in the name of democracy? Not so much.
Although I won't agree with you in all cases, you won't get an argument out of me in most cases. On the other hand, many folks who make your argument refuse to acknowledge that there have been loonies in power--throughout history--who have wiped entire civilizations out for nothing that the extinct civilization itself had done. Not everything in our world in rational. Say, for religion, riches, race, language, skin color, etc... Those are the types that I am referring to.

And no matter how much you think you can reason with that sort of sociopath mindset, you can't. History has proven it over and over. In the face of that sort of thing, you have three choices: become a sociopath and join the cause, become a subject to it, or fight it (or perhaps run from it if you are lucky enough to find somewhere to go). Nobody wants war (at least any sane person), but sometimes it's preferable to the alternative. Fighting for freedom is not a farce--at least for those who cherish it (and I say that not in reference to any nation--just a general principle).
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Old 04-15-2009, 12:56 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,754,492 times
Reputation: 2524
To me the bottom line is that we have the same rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights. They have not been recinded.

Through the years they have been put to the test I agree but in the end they remain there.

I do not believe we have lost them. Remember about the McCarthy era? They were beat up very much but in the end the people rose and took care of that.

Many people do complain a lot about the Patriot Act. I see that concern but still, as much as people complain, generally speaking it has been used for the purpoes it was written, to combat terrorism. Have any of you honestly say you have been trampled by that Act?

There is philosophical debate about that Act though. At other times war Presidents have made established restrictions on certain individual right for the protection of the nation.
Lincoln suspended habeas corpus if I remember. I believe Roosevelt did something similar. I admit I do not remember the exact point.

I will paraphrase Jefferson on the same issue. He basically said that by going to the extreme in following such laws put laws at the danger of disapperaing so he said what is the use of going to the point of having no more laws to defend. I will look it up again and post it latter if someone want to read it.

Our personal rights are not without limits just as some other rights. There are times that some rights collide. Which ones take precedence? A Supreme Court justice came up with what he called "The balancing doctrine" He said that there may be occasions when two rights collide so a decision may have to be made which one has precedence. An example may be some personal right against the security of a whole nation. Do I like having to fly to another city and all my luggage being searched. To me my privacy may be invaded for the protection of the public. The same principle may apply in some other areas. How much are we willing to give up for the sake of the whole nation?

However, as I said before, sometime certain restrictions disappear as the need for them does not exist anymore just as habeas corpus got restored later in previous wars.

Somebody in a previous post also stated rights disappear and started to use capitalism and how there is not upward mobility. I do not see that as violation of rights. The rights are still there. Also, there is upward mobility if you try hard. That is a often used fallacy by the news media and have a lot of people indoctrinated that is what is happening.

I am aware we must stay vigilant to make sure things do not get out of hand. However, the great masses do not seem to do anything about it. I suspect a wide variety of reasons. The end result is that sometime we do not get the right product from the government. We sometime elect those we want we want to micromage our lives as the OP states.

You have a great day.
El Amigo
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