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Old 04-15-2009, 01:00 PM
 
3,566 posts, read 4,491,960 times
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Its not about comprehension.

How do you suppose that will go? What will you do? Walk down Fremont and turn left? Wait for the line, "You SOB's have been looking for a fight, and now you can have it." Or react should they come to your house and then take your weapons? Is there a game plan if its announced on tv?

I'm just saying. It is one thing to be passionate but there is no romanticism here. This is not the OK Corral. Dead is still dead.
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Old 04-15-2009, 01:09 PM
 
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Further, lets say for the sake of an argument that the existing government is overthrown. What next? How will you control the masses? What will you erect in place? And will you find yourself, in an effort to control becoming the tyrant?
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Old 04-15-2009, 01:10 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,756,580 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
Although I won't agree with you in all cases, you won't get an argument out of me in most cases. On the other hand, many folks who make your argument refuse to acknowledge that there have been loonies in power--throughout history--who have wiped entire civilizations out for nothing that the extinct civilization itself had done. Not everything in our world in rational. Say, for religion, riches, race, language, skin color, etc... Those are the types that I am referring to.

And no matter how much you think you can reason with that sort of sociopath mindset, you can't. History has proven it over and over. In the face of that sort of thing, you have three choices: become a sociopath and join the cause, become a subject to it, or fight it (or perhaps run from it if you are lucky enough to find somewhere to go). Nobody wants war (at least any sane person), but sometimes it's preferable to the alternative. Fighting for freedom is not a farce--at least for those who cherish it (and I say that not in reference to any nation--just a general principle).
Good points.
There is a political science principle: Friendship binds men but national interests bind countries.

We may go to war with another nation for oil. We all know that. However, we need that oil to protect our national interests. One of our national interest is freedom. Another may be survival to be able to heat our cool our home, transport food, etc. So, yes, we may go to war another country and try to create circumstance so we can have access to that resource. I am not saying I wish it that way but I am saying that is the reality out there among world leaders. They are ruthless, tracherous, and arrange situations to get what they want. Do we not do the same at our level? Have we not decieved somebody to get what we want? We often do the very same at our own level. I must be honest and say I have done it. I am very sure many in this forum do the same and people at work and at church, etc. We also find justification for it but have no room for that with our leaders. I am saying we should just sit and allow them to do all they want. We need to find a balance with these but we need to realize someone has to do the dirty work. Let us find what that dirty work is but we need to know if someone goes very far than necessary.
Other countries may not go into another country because they may not have the muscle we have but I assure you they strike deals with other nations so they can get hold of oil also. There may be another nation that may sign a pact with us for protection or for some resource so and let us say allow us to use their country as a staging areas closer to oil reserves. They are our "friends" as long as we can serve their national interest and they are our "friends" as long as they help us protect ours.

That is the reality in this world as I see it.

You havea great day.
El Amigo
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Old 04-15-2009, 01:23 PM
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
10,347 posts, read 9,988,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandamonium View Post
Its not about comprehension.

How do you suppose that will go? What will you do? Walk down Fremont and turn left? Wait for the line, "You SOB's have been looking for a fight, and now you can have it." Or react should they come to your house and then take your weapons? Is there a game plan if its announced on tv?

I'm just saying. It is one thing to be passionate but there is no romanticism here. This is not the OK Corral. Dead is still dead.
Well, if it gets to that point, my first inclination would be to go elsewhere. I'm pretty passionate about free agency and freedom, but I'm also fairly open to just walking away provided I have a place to walk to (I don't really care much where I have that freedom, as long as I have it). If backed into a corner, then that would be the OK Corral thing.

My escape plan: hey, I hear that with global warming, Greenland is an up-and-comer. 836,000 square miles and 58,000 people. Free to wander the fjords for a lifetime... and eat a lot of cod and shrimp. Legally, of course. I don't want to be an illegal alien.
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Old 04-15-2009, 06:28 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,194,955 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandamonium View Post
I find the 2nd Ammendment argument funny. I really do. I especially love it when it is about defending oneself from the government or if need be for another revolution.
I'm thinking, have you seen our military? You don't stand a chance. I have a friend of mine, ok...an acquaintence, and my favorite thing to do is to point out just how far he would get.
There is something to what you are saying, but that doesn't obviate the need for weapons. Yes, the American Revolution is not going to happen again the way it did last time. What Bertrand Russell in regard to communist revolution in 1920 hold true for all other types of revolutions: they are not possible in an advanced democracy, because to succeed they would require the support of a proportion of the populace that would suffice to change the system non-violently. However, that does not mean the U.S. cannot degenerate in time into a Balkans-like situation. Many folks in the Balkans who found themselves without guns are lying in a mass grave somewhere.
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Old 04-15-2009, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,574,557 times
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There has never been a violent revolution in an economically developed nation with democratic principles in its government. There will not be. The way to ensure that there is not a violent revolution in America is to ensure that it remains an economically developed nation with democratic principles. Both are teetering.
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Old 04-15-2009, 07:14 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
13,119 posts, read 9,208,003 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandamonium View Post
What privileged socialist slaves?
The socialist slaves that spend almost half their working lives for the benefit of someone else.

(Latest figures from SocSec show that 2.5 workers support each recipient - and the administrative overhead. When it hits 2 workers per each recipient, we will have officially reached HALF SLAVERY.)
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Old 04-15-2009, 08:38 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,574,557 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
The socialist slaves that spend almost half their working lives for the benefit of someone else.

(Latest figures from SocSec show that 2.5 workers support each recipient - and the administrative overhead. When it hits 2 workers per each recipient, we will have officially reached HALF SLAVERY.)

Meanwhile, a large corporation that pays an employee 50K makes at least 100K in profits from the worker's efforts, and returns half to the worker, and keeps the other half for themselves, their bonuses, and their stockholders. And the future social security earnings of the worker, when retired, comes largely from the Fica deductions from the workers own paycheck, not from the corporation that got rich of his labor. So the corporation gets half and the worker gets half, and that is half-slavery.
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Old 04-15-2009, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Pensacola, Fl
656 posts, read 951,854 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
Although I won't agree with you in all cases, you won't get an argument out of me in most cases. On the other hand, many folks who make your argument refuse to acknowledge that there have been loonies in power--throughout history--who have wiped entire civilizations out for nothing that the extinct civilization itself had done.
Oh I'll concede to the fact that that has happened many times over. Nero anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
Not everything in our world in rational. Say, for religion, riches, race, language, skin color, etc... Those are the types that I am referring to.
Never said it was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
And no matter how much you think you can reason with that sort of sociopath mindset, you can't.
I know, but, if you don't poke the bear it won't bite you. Don't give a sociopath a reason to attack (because even sociopath like dictators have to garner some sort of public support for a war). If we weren't overthrowing governments, placing new dictators in the said government then coming back oh a few decades later to usurp the dictator of said power in the name of democracy, then our problems wouldn't be as bad. Equally, if we weren't trying to colonize the world with this new form of Manifest Destiny (a.k.a. 'democracy') then our foreign problems wouldn't be as bad. Just like you can't force people to change, you can't force other governments to embrace your form of government because it works for you. Some countries are fine with their dictators or other system's of government. It's not our place to tell them how to govern their people and how to live.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
History has proven it over and over.
And history has equally proven over and over that when sticking your nose where it doesn't belong results in a huge backlash. WWI anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
Fighting for freedom is not a farce--at least for those who cherish it (and I say that not in reference to any nation--just a general principle).
Fighting for freedom sounds wonderful in the ideological world. You know, fighting for your right to life, liberty, and happiness; all that jazz. But in the real world, we have known it to be a farce. Politicians say we are 'fighting for freedom' or fighting for democracy when it's just one large power struggle. They say that to the masses to get them to be okay with war. History has proven it to us. Remember Vietnam? Remember we were also fighting for democracy (of the vietnamese people)? That's why I say it's bullsh*t. Politicians and people in power don't care about freedom; they care about money and power. And if using soldiers as cannon fodder to further their goals for their money and power is the way to do it, they'll damn sure do it. Not because they care about democracy and what it means, but because they want more power, more money. It's ironic because the people who start the wars are never the ones to finish them and are never the ones who put their lives on the line.
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Old 04-15-2009, 10:56 PM
 
3,566 posts, read 4,491,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
Well, if it gets to that point, my first inclination would be to go elsewhere. I'm pretty passionate about free agency and freedom, but I'm also fairly open to just walking away provided I have a place to walk to (I don't really care much where I have that freedom, as long as I have it). If backed into a corner, then that would be the OK Corral thing.

My escape plan: hey, I hear that with global warming, Greenland is an up-and-comer. 836,000 square miles and 58,000 people. Free to wander the fjords for a lifetime... and eat a lot of cod and shrimp. Legally, of course. I don't want to be an illegal alien.

Ok. That was funny
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