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Old 04-27-2009, 09:10 AM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,944,288 times
Reputation: 3848

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How far should schools go? In my opinion, how about as far as to denounce bullies? How about as far as trying to impart the outrageously controversial idea that students should respect each other, or that someone's "weakness" isn't a carte blanche to put excrement in his locker? Or refrain from rewarding bullying behavior? Or allowing teachers to stop violent hazing that's in progress? Or create a disciplinary record for students who physically attack other students? Is that really too much to ask?

Let's turn this around. All those people who defend bullies and support bullying: How far do you believe bullies should be allowed to proceed against their victims before the authorities can get involved?
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Old 04-27-2009, 09:37 AM
 
Location: Columbus, OH
857 posts, read 1,229,959 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
Let's turn this around. All those people who defend bullies and support bullying: How far do you believe bullies should be allowed to proceed against their victims before the authorities can get involved?
Bullies should not be tolerated if it is physical abuse. But if it is just kids talking then it is nearly impossible to regulate. So when physical harm is coming to a child then obviously authorities need to be involved. I am not so worried about what kids say to each other, I mean whatever happened to the mentality of "sticks and stones..." ???
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Old 04-27-2009, 09:48 AM
 
Location: NYC area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ulnevrwalkalone View Post
I am not so worried about what kids say to each other, I mean whatever happened to the mentality of "sticks and stones..." ???
I am sure you know that bullying involves a lot more than just words. And words, too, are not all created equal -- bullies can and do use speech effectively to perpetrate fraud and otherwise inflict damage on their victims that goes well beyond mere insults. I agree that all speech cannot and should not be regulated, but many forms of bullying can be effectively curtailed -- schools simply choose not to do it. Why? It's a choice based on a value judgment. Bullies are given free reign because the qualities that make them what they are are deemed desirable in a young adult, and because a lot of people (including teachers and school administrators) actually get a vicarious thrill from watching them pick of weaker kids. Because people hate nerds and intellectuals (quintessential victims of bullies) and like seeing them squirm. Because schools are more concerned with developing so-called "leadership qualities" than with developing students' abilities to, say, solve integral equations. Because heaven forbid we curtail someone's freedom to do something that disrupts and shuts down the academic process.
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Old 04-27-2009, 09:58 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,671,678 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ulnevrwalkalone View Post
If bullies really are a big issue to you, get involved. Become a big brother or join the PTA or something and help these kids become normal functioning adults..
Bullies are raised by their parents, and the parents have the unquestioned right to raise their kids according to their own standards. Only in extreme cases should a citizen have a right to interfere in that domestic privilege.

If we interceded with the parental raising of bullies, where would future generations get their cops, prison guards, and drill sargeants? How would we force Muslim school kids to admit that they are terrorists, so we could kill their families? Bullies are essential cogs in the wheel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
How far do you believe bullies should be allowed to proceed against their victims before the authorities can get involved?

They absolutely should not be allowed to go so far as to call a kid a virgin because he is from the Virgin Islands. That is going way, way over the line. Oh, the carnage!
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Old 04-27-2009, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Columbus, OH
857 posts, read 1,229,959 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
I am sure you know that bullying involves a lot more than just words. And words, too, are not all created equal -- bullies can and do use speech effectively to perpetrate fraud and otherwise inflict damage on their victims that goes well beyond mere insults... Because people hate nerds and intellectuals (quintessential victims of bullies) and like seeing them squirm. Because schools are more concerned with developing so-called "leadership qualities" than with developing students' abilities to, say, solve integral equations. Because heaven forbid we curtail someone's freedom to do something that disrupts and shuts down the academic process.
This all boils down to teaching kids about responsibility and the importance of friends. And nobody wants to put any responsibility on the children. But Bullies only exist because other students will not step up and defend each other. We teach the children that if something is wrong they can just go tell an adult and they will make it all better, well the adults can't. Most Students learn that tattling does nothing and they need to look out for each other, so they make friends. The "nerds" are taught that friends are not important, they can just tattle, and look where it gets them.

again this is strictly speaking of verbal abuse, physical abuse still needs to be strictly punished.
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Old 04-27-2009, 10:22 AM
 
3,566 posts, read 4,495,448 times
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Mom to child: Honey, don't forget to make friends because in the adult world it isn't about what you know but who you blow.

Try not to mess with the natural order of things.
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Old 04-27-2009, 10:33 AM
 
3,566 posts, read 4,495,448 times
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Or mayhap, be responsible for what comes out of your mouth.
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:00 AM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,944,288 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
They absolutely should not be allowed to go so far as to call a kid a virgin because he is from the Virgin Islands. That is going way, way over the line. Oh, the carnage!
I take it to mean that you believe there should be NO limit to what one student can do to another at school. All laws should be suspended and students should just battle it out, with the administration munching popcorn and laying bets.
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:10 AM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,944,288 times
Reputation: 3848
Quote:
Originally Posted by ulnevrwalkalone View Post
The "nerds" are taught that friends are not important, they can just tattle, and look where it gets them.
That's not true. Nerds are just taught that the primary function of school is to get an education, rather than build a social network -- and that's what makes a lot of folks get their panties all in a bunch. After all, since making friends is a lot easier for most people than doing advanced calculus problems, putting the former above the latter makes the mathematically challenged think that they've achieved something better than having academic knowledge or competence. There are simply those people who have a greater interest in academic endeavors than in socializing, which of course inspires at a lot of resentment -- but the school should be the last place where a child is punished for being interested in academics. The school should be, first and foremost, for the academics. If the epic battle of bullies vs. nice-people-learning-to-make-friends is interfering with the teaching of math, history, English, foreign language, or any other academic discipline, the school has failed those children, as far as I am concerned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandamonium View Post
Mom to child: Honey, don't forget to make friends because in the adult world it isn't about what you know but who you blow.

Try not to mess with the natural order of things.
Seems to be EXACTLY what people are saying here.
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,671,678 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
I take it to mean that you believe there should be NO limit to what one student can do to another at school. All laws should be suspended and students should just battle it out, with the administration munching popcorn and laying bets.
Adolescence is an experimental social laboratory. Kids try on personalities to see how they fit, and if they look ridiculous, they get poked fun at. Over time, they learn to reject their social failures, and gravitate toweard their social successes.

An anti-bullying campaign should not go so far that no kids ever get to gauge how well they are fine-tuning themselves. We would have some awful misfits, if nobody ever got "corrected" when they behaved outside the norm of social tolerances. In a way, you could say the bullies police societal norms, by punishing the irregulars and bringing them back into line.

A bully using brute force to steal lunch money is one thing. It is quite another matter to acccuse a person of being a bully for saying "That's a goofy hat", no matter how sensitive the kid who is wearing the goofy hat. That's how kids learn how society defines goofy hats,
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