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Old 04-30-2009, 12:09 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,768,384 times
Reputation: 4539

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Quote:
Originally Posted by leftydan6 View Post
While illegal, alcohol was STILL the most commonly used drug...because it's part of the culture of every society other than Puritans and Muslims. Japan, China, All of Europe, South America and Mexico all make their own kinds of alcohol.

Who on Earth would just shoot up heroin tomorrow simply because it was legalized? Hard drugs don't exactly appeal to most people, and if legalized, they would be better informed of the danger of them as well. Alcohol is popular because it's highly advertised, and associated with everything from weddings, to rites of passage to watching football. Not too many fathers would say "come on son, you're a man now, let's shoot up some heroin."
You cannot compare the 1920's to now. I have no knowledge of what happened in the 1920's other than what I've heard....and what I've heard was/is largely from people who weren't alive then either. In all likelihood, the same is true for you.

America is a different place today. The selfishness and need for instant gratification has increased drastically even in the past 30 years.

The reality is that alcohol use would still be more common than the use of cocaine, heroin, etc., but these drugs would be used by FAR more people than they are today. The currently-banned substances would likely be glamorized and popularized (not sure if that's an actual word...LOL) in a manner similar to alcohol, thus causing more use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leftydan6 View Post
Just because it's illegal doesn't mean it SHOULD be. If I do no harm to anyone, how can that possibly be a crime?
OK...should DWI laws be taken off the books and drunk driving only be criminalized if it results in an accident causing property damage or bodily injury to another person? Answer logically and seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leftydan6 View Post
WHAT CHANGES!?!? You've never once said what you would do to improve the current situation. What could you possibly do? They've been illegal for 70+ years and the drug gangs are richer, more dangerous and more powerful than ever. Seriously, what would you suggest?
For starters...get rid of federal drug laws. Federal drug laws should apply only in the case of drugs being transported into and out of the country...everything else should rightfully be handled by state laws.

As far as state laws, I'd suggest moving away from incarceration and towards treatment for users. I would suggest continuing to lock dealers up. I'd support major changes in the criminal justice system as a whole that promote reintegration into society for all offenders - especially drug offenders.

Last edited by afoigrokerkok; 04-30-2009 at 12:18 PM..
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Old 04-30-2009, 05:58 PM
 
Location: San Diego
2,518 posts, read 1,845,986 times
Reputation: 1298
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
You cannot compare the 1920's to now. I have no knowledge of what happened in the 1920's other than what I've heard....and what I've heard was/is largely from people who weren't alive then either. In all likelihood, the same is true for you.
What a ridiculous statement. Since you weren't alive, the history and facts don't matter? So would you ignore the Holocaust and say that the facts don't matter simply because you may not have been born yet?

Quote:
America is a different place today. The selfishness and need for instant gratification has increased drastically even in the past 30 years.
Really? So all those people smoking pot, having sex and enjoying hard drugs in the 1960s (40+ years ago) didn't exist either?

READ A HISTORY BOOK!!!!

Quote:
The reality is that alcohol use would still be more common than the use of cocaine, heroin, etc., but these drugs would be used by FAR more people than they are today. The currently-banned substances would likely be glamorized and popularized (not sure if that's an actual word...LOL) in a manner similar to alcohol, thus causing more use.
Why would "far more" people use cocaine or heroin simply because they were legal? I don't know anyone who would consider using those drugs simply if they were legal that hasn't done them already. Legality has nothing to do with whether or not you will try something, and making it illegal means that it's actually more readily available for kids because black-market dealers do not care about anything other than profit. 7-11 would not sell weed to a 14 year old, but a dealer will.

Quote:
OK...should DWI laws be taken off the books and drunk driving only be criminalized if it results in an accident causing property damage or bodily injury to another person? Answer logically and seriously.
Yeah. If I get home with a .09% BAC without getting pulled over or causing an accident, I shouldn't be in any trouble. But if I hit or kill someone, I should face consequences. There are so many other things that people do in cars that are just as dangerous as being a little buzzed, like fiddling with the radio, talking to passengers, looking for something in the glove box, using the GPS, talking on the phone, texting, yelling at their kids in the back seat, checking out a hot girl walking down the street (I've skidded because I almost rear ended someone when I saw a hot chick walking next to my car once...) or basically anything else. Why not just say nobody can drive because car accidents caused by sober drivers kill somewhere between 15,000 and 25,000 people a year?

Dick Cheney and George W Bush had three DUIs between the two of them...

Quote:
For starters...get rid of federal drug laws. Federal drug laws should apply only in the case of drugs being transported into and out of the country...everything else should rightfully be handled by state laws.
Absolutely...I agree with that. If this was the case, then we'd already have legal marijuana (and possibly other drugs) in many states throughout the country.
Quote:
As far as state laws, I'd suggest moving away from incarceration and towards treatment for users. I would suggest continuing to lock dealers up. I'd support major changes in the criminal justice system as a whole that promote reintegration into society for all offenders - especially drug offenders.
Dealers without violence are just businessmen. I find nothing wrong with an entrepeneurial crack dealer if he only sells to adults who willingly ask him for the drug. However, if he's a pusher or uses violence in his business...he should be in prison. But then again, I think Pharmaceutical Sales Reps should be considered criminals for the poison they've pushed on us...like Vioxx.
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Old 04-30-2009, 06:31 PM
 
3,566 posts, read 4,491,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leftydan6 View Post
Well, when they commit a crime, they will be considered a criminal. Not one of the potheads I know (and I just learned last night the three people who are my neighbors are also pot smokers...they are great neighbors and they've been paying the rent for 5+ years now while all holding their jobs the entire time.) would simply commit a crime just because they wanted some pot to smoke. The ones I know who would rob you for your pot would also steal your iPod if you turned your back. They are dishonest and immoral people...not just people who smoke something just to feel better or to self-medicate.
No, they already commit crimes and they are criminals. Not when they commit crimes.

It is not based on whom you know or the number of people that you know that do not commit other crimes.
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Old 04-30-2009, 08:15 PM
 
3,088 posts, read 7,636,400 times
Reputation: 2024
I agree with the notion that a person should have the right to put what ever they want in their bodies. Not only that but you lock up a non-violent offender he is going to be violent by the time he comes out.
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Old 05-01-2009, 07:21 AM
 
4 posts, read 5,662 times
Reputation: 14
Default Legalize it

Have you ever heard of a guy going on a stoned rage and beating his wife? Probably not... Pot users are pretty docile people. I believe pot can potentially inhibit many things in life, which is why I haven't used it for several years. However when trying to argue against, there is nothing to be said about pot and its dangers that can't already be said about cigarettes and alcohol. When people say its a gateway drug and it leads to other things, I say it doesn't. The person using pot leads his or herself to other things. Not Pot...leave it alone...Besides, most people drink or smoke cigarettes before they use pot.

I heard once we spend over $10 billion a year imprisoning pot users alone. I can't quote that, and I forgot which news source it came from, but its seems pretty accurate. The government needs to start taking steps out of our lives. Illegalize marijuana and let the parents be responsible for their own children.
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Old 05-01-2009, 08:17 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,768,384 times
Reputation: 4539
Quote:
Originally Posted by leftydan6 View Post
READ A HISTORY BOOK!!!!
I've read plenty of history books. Great way to insult my intelligence!

I was merely pointing out that I trust real life experience more than history books. My experience has shown that more people use alcohol than illegal drugs and that many of the illegal drugs, if not most, are more dangerous than alcohol. If they were legal, more would use them and the consequences for society would be grave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leftydan6 View Post
Legality has nothing to do with whether or not you will try something, and making it illegal means that it's actually more readily available for kids because black-market dealers do not care about anything other than profit. 7-11 would not sell weed to a 14 year old, but a dealer will.
And there will still be people who will buy the pot at 7-11 and sell it or give it to the 14 year old. It Happens with alcohol all the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leftydan6 View Post
Yeah. If I get home with a .09% BAC without getting pulled over or causing an accident, I shouldn't be in any trouble. But if I hit or kill someone, I should face consequences.
We have to have protective laws. Period. Protective laws will never be eliminated and they should never be. The DWI laws save countless innocent lives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leftydan6 View Post
Absolutely...I agree with that. If this was the case, then we'd already have legal marijuana (and possibly other drugs) in many states throughout the country.
Pot yes, but heroin, cocaine, methampetamine, etc., no. No state would take that risk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leftydan6 View Post
Dealers without violence are just businessmen. I find nothing wrong with an entrepeneurial crack dealer if he only sells to adults who willingly ask him for the drug. However, if he's a pusher or uses violence in his business...he should be in prison. But then again, I think Pharmaceutical Sales Reps should be considered criminals for the poison they've pushed on us...like Vioxx.
More restrictions should be placed on the pharmaceutical companies.

As far as the "dealers without violence," they are committing crimes and should be punished. They are not simply businessmen.
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Old 05-01-2009, 10:09 AM
 
Location: San Diego
2,518 posts, read 1,845,986 times
Reputation: 1298
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
I've read plenty of history books. Great way to insult my intelligence!

I was merely pointing out that I trust real life experience more than history books. My experience has shown that more people use alcohol than illegal drugs and that many of the illegal drugs, if not most, are more dangerous than alcohol. If they were legal, more would use them and the consequences for society would be grave.
Real life experiences are less accurate than history books because we are deluded by prejudice and bias. It is our nature. Everyone sees everything differently, but facts are facts. What sense does your argument that simply because more people drink alcohol (something socially accepted and considered a necessary part of socializing and even business) that people will suddenly start using drugs simply because they're legal. Prohibition proved that making drinking illegal did nothing to stop drinking and that the numbers of people who drank before, during and after prohibition are eerily similar.

Again I ask you, who would possibly start using Heroin simply because it were made legal? And how would the consequences of MORE REGULATION (because illegal drugs have no regulation and are readily availble to kids) on marijuana be worse than what we have now? In HS I had a much easier time finding Marijuana and Ecstasy than I did in getting Alcohol or Cigarettes because drug dealers don't ask for ID. 7-11 Does. Rite-Aid does. Criminals will rob another dealer and shoot up the neighborhood to steal territory from rival drug gangs, but Rite-Aid wont firebomb Walgreens for a bigger share of the drug marketplace. See, this is simple logic and looking at history to understand the consequences of our action. The most famous era for crime in America just happens to coincide with the war on alcohol. Gangs were rampant and they grew incredibly wealthy. The Kennedy family built an empire on the money they made bootlegging. So did Al Capone. Because of the moronic drug war, Pablo Escobar was once the 7th richest man in the world simply because he controlled Cocaine traffic.

Quote:
And there will still be people who will buy the pot at 7-11 and sell it or give it to the 14 year old. It Happens with alcohol all the time.
Of course, but it's still better than having dealers on every HS campus in America.

Quote:
We have to have protective laws. Period. Protective laws will never be eliminated and they should never be. The DWI laws save countless innocent lives.
How so? There are still thousands of deaths due to drunk drivers every year. Most people who get DUI/DWIs don't stop at just one. Some people get over a dozen of them.

Quote:
Pot yes, but heroin, cocaine, methampetamine, etc., no. No state would take that risk.
Don't be so sure. Canadians have legalized heroin injection clinics. So has Switzerland. They may not fully legalize and have it at Walgreens, but it will be available in some places. Vermont would probably be the first place to do it.


Quote:
More restrictions should be placed on the pharmaceutical companies.
Pot harms a lot fewer people than the pharmaceutical companies, and they make billions and create hundreds of thousands of jobs.

Quote:
As far as the "dealers without violence," they are committing crimes and should be punished. They are not simply businessmen.
But they are. Many of them just sell pot because they have a connection to a cheap source and know a lot of people who need a place to buy pot. They run a business, most of them 100% peacefully and non-violent, and keep large number of clients happy over a long period of time. They provide a product that many people desire and compete with other dealers on price. The only difference between a pot dealer and a frozen yogurt shop is the legality. They both sell a product that is consumed to make people feel better, they both give free samples, they both tend to give discounts when you buy in bulk and they both satisfy customer's needs. Sounds like a business to me.
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Old 05-02-2009, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Santa Barbara
1,474 posts, read 2,585,932 times
Reputation: 942
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormy night View Post
Most people who enjoy pot smoking want it to be legal. Of course they wouldn't see any problems with it. Of course they wouldn't see the effects of it on society (lower mental capabilities, impaired behavior while driving, brain deterioration, etc.). Anybody on crack would think the same way. Anybody on alcohol thinks that way. Anything to justify their behavior.

Legalizing pot would only serve to pat those on the head who smoke it, telling them it's ok. It's not ok.
If only those that smoke it want it to be legal, how do you explain all the police officers that would prefer the legalization of marijuana? I actually WORKED with police officers and they all felt that it ought to be legal.
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Old 05-02-2009, 07:42 PM
 
17 posts, read 35,160 times
Reputation: 24
Default legalizing marijuana

Every reason to legalize; no reason not to. Only the ignorant think it's habit forming--they haven't done their homework. Also , at least it DOES have some medicinal value which is more than you can say for cigerettes or alcohol. AND, no one ever smoked "pot" and killed a car load of innocent people, or develped sclerosis/cirrhosis of the liver because of using marijuana. CA pts. need it for nausea and to enhance appetite. Cancer users have said that when they no longer needed it, they quit "cold turkey" with no withdrawal. What other drug or vice can come up to that standard?? It would put the drug lords out of business, make production legal - controlled - and taxable. Mexicans that come here to plant it in our national parks and forrest, would no longer have a market, so the turf wars would end. It would do for marijuana what the 21st ammendment did for moonshiners and rum-runners. It would reduce the mounting prison debt for incarcerated people who are doing time for something as harmless as mariguana. Keep the child molestors, rapist and murderers in prison and leave the pot smokers alone. What's so hard to understand about it????CHS Grad Also, NO STUDY has shown that marijuana use leads to stronger drugs!! Those who think it does, need to realize - those people will do harder drugs whether they've ever used marijuana or not.
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Old 05-03-2009, 11:18 AM
 
3,566 posts, read 4,491,960 times
Reputation: 1846
There are no turf wars for marijuana. Marijuana stopped being an excellent source of cash in the 1970's with the rise of cocaine. So, its not going to take care of your drug lord problem.

Actually, there are people who pull out guns and shoot people while high. Again, there are people who will kill other people and break into their houses for marijuana. Here is the thing, there is not one special little pot smoker Holy Grail group that you get to pick and choose who its members are.

Legalized, you will still have those that commit the same crimes while high. Frankly, if it was legalized I think those establishments that hire people could refuse to hire and fire those that test positive would still be in place. I doubt that would change.

I don't have too many qualms about legalizing marijuana but don't BS me with how your group is so friggin' elite and clean and the only thing your raiding is the ice box. The kids that got high and then did a drive by are still high. You don't get to make the call that separates the groups. You don't get to pick and choose.
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