Do You Trust the Police? (politician, financial, Chicago, abuse)

[jtur88]

Ogre, your pooints are well taken. Jut a few comments.

The police weight heavily on the decision of the prosecutory to plea bargain in the cases you described, in which the police officer is the only witness. What the cop will say pretty much carries the day in terms of the prosecution's expectation of winning the case. In such cases, the degree of justice served rests pretty much entirely on the cop's shoulders.

The Tenaha Texas case was not at all an "isolated" event. It continued for more than two years without the authorities ever being challenged, and netted 140 innocent victims whose lives were very heavily impacted. It is the absence of any check in place against this kind of police abuse, which enables hundreds, thousands of incidents like this to continue virtually without public notice. An almost identical scam came out of Volusia County Florida, a decade or so ago. That one never came to light until they confiscated the car and cash from a black off-duty Miami police lieutenant.. Even he never got his property back, but he broke the scam.

Finally, if the American people are so criminally motivated that we've snowed under our judicial system, causing it to fall so short of being able to even go through the motions, much less effect any semblance of genuine justice, our entire society falls into serious doubt, and should be addressed at a whole different philosophical level. Instead of trying to put a band-aid on one link.

[J double R]

cops are human just as you or I. Thus, as with the general population, some you can trust, some you can't.

A lot of people have no reason to distrust police, except for what they hear/read/watch on the internet and television.

blind judgement plays a huge role in this, as it does with most other issues or subjects that pertain to a large portion, or all of, society.

[Granny Sue]

For the most part...yes I trust the police.

Every part of society has it's bad apples and I'm not naive enough to think that ALL cops are the best thing since sliced bread.

Nor am I so jaded that I think all cops are bad.

To paint them ALL with such a broad brush is just irresponsible.

[ogre]

Originally Posted by jtur88

Ogre, your pooints are well taken. Jut a few comments.

The police weight heavily on the decision of the prosecutory to plea bargain in the cases you described, in which the police officer is the only witness. What the cop will say pretty much carries the day in terms of the prosecution's expectation of winning the case. In such cases, the degree of justice served rests pretty much entirely on the cop's shoulders.

The Tenaha Texas case was not at all an "isolated" event. It continued for more than two years without the authorities ever being challenged, and netted 140 innocent victims whose lives were very heavily impacted. It is the absence of any check in place against this kind of police abuse, which enables hundreds, thousands of incidents like this to continue virtually without public notice. An almost identical scam came out of Volusia County Florida, a decade or so ago. That one never came to light until they confiscated the car and cash from a black off-duty Miami police lieutenant.. Even he never got his property back, but he broke the scam.

Finally, if the American people are so criminally motivated that we've snowed under our judicial system, causing it to fall so short of being able to even go through the motions, much less effect any semblance of genuine justice, our entire society falls into serious doubt, and should be addressed at a whole different philosophical level. Instead of trying to put a band-aid on one link.

Let's get to the last point first. I completely agree with the sentiment in your last paragraph. It is true, though, that sometimes real-life situations can be very complicated, making change difficult. Sometimes you deal with the situation that exists. That's reality. Probably also true that part of becoming a mature person is learning when and where change is possible, and striking a balance between making the effort to improve things where you can and realizing all the while that sometimes things are the way they are. Basically, like that old saying, God grant me the courage to change those things I can . . . and the wisdom to know the difference between the two.

Regarding plea-bargaining, I can speak from personal experience, but of course I can speak only from my personal experience in a certain place and time, realizing that it might be different elsewhere. In the county where I worked as a cop, thirty years or so ago, it was so much a standard practice for the middle-level offenses to be plea-bargained that there was not really a great deal of involvement by the police in the decision on what happened once the process reached the D.A.'s office. You basically took it for granted that anything above the level of a minor traffic violation or other minor offense, and below the level of the occasional major felony was going to be plea-bargained.

In fact, in three and a half years in law enforcement I was asked directly about my thoughts on having a case plea-bargained exactly once. And that was by the defense attorney. It was a case where the suspect had physically assualted me when I had approached him about what had started out as a minor offense, a situation where I probably would have just chewed him out and sent him on his way if he had cooperated. I was not seriously injured, but still had enough injury to warrant a trip to the ER to get checked out and make sure there was nothing serious. The guy's lawyer checked with me about how I would feel about a plea bargain. Now, I have little doubt that the lawyer couldn't have cared less about how I really felt about it, but just wanted to make sure, before negotiating with the D.A.'s office, that I wasn't going to raise a stink about the idea of letting the drunken little punk who had sucker-punched me get off with anything less than the max. he could have had coming to him. Still, I understood how things were done around there, and gave my okay to the plea bargain, and that was the one and only time in 3-1/2 years that I was asked for feedback on the idea of a plea bargain for anyone I had arrested.

Now, obviously I don't know how things were done in other places at that time, and I don't know much about how things are usually done now. In any case, as I said in the earlier post, I do think there is potentially a serious problem if plea-bargaining becomes the automatic way to handle every criminal case, to the point where even the defense attorney always assumes that the case will be plea-bargained, without really considering his client's guilt or innocence to be an issue. But, as I also pointed out earlier, the vast majority of those sent into the system really are guilty. There are chilling exceptions to this, but usually the main problem with plea-bargaining is that someone guilty will get off with a lighter penalty than what is commensurate with the offense he actually committed. Agreed, though, that those exceptions can lead to some awful consequences.

I'll also say that I do get concerned about what appears to be a possible trend toward a more hardline attitude in some law enforcement circles. Below is a link I've thought of posting at the thread about "militiaristic police," but have not posted there because it seems as if that thread might cover a lot of the same ground as this one. It's a link to a picture of two Massachusetts state troopers, showing a look the MA State Police have had since the '80's. Now, I could be remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure that when I was growing up in the Boston metro area, pre-1980's, that the MA troopers wore the traditional Smokey hats. In this picture, with the peaked caps, the boots, and the puffed pant legs, they look like a couple of Nazis. The picture is black-and-white, so you can't see that the uniforms are blue, not the grays and blacks and browns of the various Nazi uniforms, but still, when I see the MA troopers out and about today, I get kind of chilled inside, and I do really have to wonder what it says about a department that would present this kind of image to the public. Here is the link: Our good friend, Sgt Mike Crosby - Massachusetts State Police.

On the other hand, I also feel that we don't want to be jumping quickly to the conclusion that examples like those you have provided, or the "new and improved" look of the MA State Police indicate a trend toward fascism in the ranks of American law enforcement across the board. The situation bears watching, but I do believe that in the most typical communities, representing the vast majority of situations, the police are still today more like my hypothetical Officer Smith in my post last night. Now, Offcr. Smith will deal with other kinds of situations than the ones I thought of off the top of my head late last night. He'll deal with mundane situations like car accidents and such, and sleazy kinds of incidents where he arrests people for shoplifting or disorderly conduct or DWI or plenty of other scuzzy petty offenses, and with emotionally wrenching situations such as when the car accident is fatal (which I never had to deal with) or when he deals with the death from an overdose of a teenage kid or a rape victim right after the fact (both of which I did encounter), but the bottom line is that the vast majority of the time, most cops will be like Offcr. Smith, just doing their job, making a positive contribution to the world around them in ways that will never make the news beyond maybe the local small-town paper, and often not even there.

This means it's difficult to find a lot of positive stories about the good things cops do every day, because those aren't sensational enough to be newsworthy, though you can always dig up stories about the bad cops. The dangerous cops are out there, for sure, but they are not the usual case, and I do think that at a forum for serious discussion, like probably all forums at C-D to a degree, but certainly the Great Debates forum, you probably want to be careful about breaking into discussions about real issues involving today's police with links to stories about the worst of cops. Not that those situations should not be discussed, but they need to be dealt with here on this forum in a thoughtful manner. I'm sure there are other places someone can go if he wants to make posts meant to bash the police by casting them in the worst light, but that really does not fit at this website, especially at this forum. So, it's good to be careful how you handle the discussion here. That's really the point I was getting at last night.

[jtur88]

One of the more frightful things to me, aside from the reality of the police, is that increasingly, TV shows and movies are portraying cops as bad guys, the public sees it, and still the concept does not register in the public awareness. Mainly because so many mid-brained Americans have been so thoroughly brainwasned to believe the cops are always right and the people they encounter are always bad. Amazingly, these cop reality shows actually show cops misbehaving taking a hardline stand for the cameras, being smartassiz, degrading the dignity of people who are not "bad", but merely afould of the law.

Let me cite an example. Vegas cops pull two girls over in a car. Theyre dressed for fun, shorts, halter tops. The cops discover that their car insurance is not valid. The girls, in the final shot, are walking down the shoulder of the highway, one of them barefoot, carrying what they can carry, while the officer radios in for a tow-truck to haul away their car. This show exists for no other reason than to convince a gullible audience that the cops are the "good guys", and a majority of the audience comes away thinking those cops did a good thing, without a thought as to the safety or wellbeing of two defenseless and not very bright women who have just been abandoned along a roadside to fend for themselves in a state of desperation,, in one of the most dangerous cities in America.

I don't mean for this anecdotal example to carry my argument, but my point is that the American people are so brainwashed that the cops are good, that even showing them behaving badly does not register in the gray matter of the hypnotized audience.

[ogre]

Okay, I had to read your whole post, JTUR. At first I thought you were talking about fictional cop shows, which I think actually seem to be de-emphasizing some of the violent realities involved with law enforcement. For example, the CSI shows emphasize more of an intellectual or scientific approach to investigation, with some of their cops seeming kind of nerdy rather than street-tough. Then there's Law & Order SVU, which has pretty much turned into a soap opera. Maybe part of a larger current trend away from movies and television shows featuring macho tough guys. As in, now that Ahnie and Sly are getting on in years, and Ahnie has abandoned Hollywood for Sacramento, there's really no current generation of actors like them, or their kinds of movies.

But then I read on, and saw that you were talking more about reality cop shows. Over the twenty years or so that COPS has been on the air, I've had periods of waxing and waning interest in that show. I've never seen the one you gave as an example (or maybe it was on another show). I do feel that you can see the whole range of personalities found in law enforcement if you watch that show often enough. Of course I can't know for sure what these guys are like from seeing them on television, but I do sometimes spot technical mistakes regarding officer safety, as well as so-so skill in dealing with people. This fits with a point many people have made here--that cops are people, and will have their ups and downs like everyone else.

As far as spotting possible bad cops on that show, I've seen some. However, I think that someone who believes that he's seeing overly aggressive cops on that show very frequently probably is revealing a lack of understanding of the realities involved with a job that, whatever else it may entail, always involves enforcing the law, which does not always lead to the most friendly interactions with people.

Interestingly, harking back to my observation in an earlier post that generally the quality of the police will reflect the degree of honesty or dishonesty in the community, the first cop on COPS who comes to my mind as a possibly being really bad news is a guy who appeared several times maybe two, three, four years ago, who worked in an older Northeastern city in an area with a widespread reputation for organized crime and deeply entrenched corruption.

[yo_kool_d]

I will appear in court as Pro Se on 5/19/2009 with the analyze and transcribed audio CD recording created by my wife of her condoning and allowing our minor child to engage in oral sex with an adult male. The court permitted me to retain Audio Forensic Laboratory. When my wife denied the video tape I discovered captured no live footage of her having sex with a man in bed. She told the Judge audio contains only the voices of her talking and playing with the children. Problem is the two processed audio transcripts confirms an adult male identifies himself to my minor son as “Tom, I am a policeman!” This is my wife ex boyfriend before we were married with his female partner who identifies herself “I’m a Police Officer, I do not play! I am a Police Officer everyday!” Just before my wife said “when you finish I want you to *** me in my a!” The Police Officers are depicted using drugs and having various types of sex with my wife as my minor son ask “can I watch mommy!” I have only petition to modify custody and child support. I attach my affidavit and exhibits to my petition. The court is aware the audio may contain sexual child abuse, but does not know anything about the Chicago Police being heard on it. Here is 1 of 2 independent transcripts the other one is more detailing by seconds of total 26 minutes audio. I will get custody of my children I need help with what the chicago police are doing with my two minor children. Can you help me! Transcript is from fornersic audio and are actual voices not the TV or Radio there are 4 Police Officers in my home using drugs, two men have sex with my wife and my son watch his mother having oral sex as a man is so high on drugs he is on my kitchen floor pointing guns at my 5 yr old son.

I filed a report with the OPS on 3/19/2009, the officer that took my report tried to make me lye about what was on the audio and transcript. He kept trying to get me too refuse to file my claim, then got mad and ended our meeting. Why did this happen to me: Go to YOUTUBE.COM Click on videos then type: shehurtmykids name of file 2 no good cop wait 4 me.

Here is the transcript: Sorry I did not edit what you are about to read!

UMF unknown female, UM1 Unknown M1,


. UMF Stay back in here.
ARAE Hi daddy.
DEREK SR. Hey baby. Come on ma we are getting ready to get out of here.
DEREK JR. There’s someone -- There’s someone in the back room. It’s uh -- It’s uh one of mommy friends.
LAUREN It’s a wasp -- wasp.
DEREK JR. Wasp -- wasp.
LAUREN It’s a wasp -- wasp yeah right.
UM1 (Inaudible.)
ARAE Grandma. Hello.
DEREK JR. There’s a wasp in the back room. Daddy there’s a wasp in the back room. Grandma, there’s a wasp in the back room.
LAUREN I’ll give you a call tomorrow morning.
ARAE I see something. I see something -- a bee.
LAUREN Where you been?
DEREK SR. (Inaudible.)
LAUREN Where you been? I thought your back was hurting you.
No problem -- No problem, who’s smoking is that you or Era?
DEREK SR. It wasn’t me.
UMF (Inaudible.)
LAUREN Arae come on now get in bed.
There it go, the mosquito Derek. Oh my God, get that mosquito. Oh, shoot. What you got a door open back there?
ARAE You see somebody’s there? No.
DEREK JR. You gone hide in the closet.
UF1 Yea.
ARAE Ya. Ya, ya, ya, ya, ya. He -- he -- he -- he -- he -- he -- he –
UM1 You getting **** by him
Derek, go on ahead so I can lock the door. Come on, Derek what you doing?
ARAE Someone at the door, it’s grandfather.
ERA Arae quit jumping.
LAUREN Arae go get in the bed.
ERA Arae quit jumping.
LAUREN Get your belly in the bed. Oh there it go -- there it go Derek.
ARAE Mommy! Come here mommy! Come here mommy, mommy come here!
LAUREN I didn’t think he was ever gonna leave.
UF1 (Inaudible) had told me to hop out now.
UM2 He was supposed to have left out a half-a-hour ago.
LAUREN I been thinking about you, through my heart can’t take no more I keep running back to you. (Singing) I don’t know why he treats me so bad, you didn’t love me. You didn’t need me. Ahhhhhhhhhh, ahhhhhhhhhh. I trusted you I trusted you. So sad, so bad what love will may you do all the things that we regret, all the things we respect. Not with my latest. Come on walk -- send for me. Chucky Cheeses, Chucky Cheeses! Something bit me, I think the think bit me mommy.
ARAE Mommy!
LAUREN Shhh! Shhh!
JR Lauren!
LAUREN Derek, get that tissue off the floor. Arae, you know what -- I know that’s Arae, Arae go get that tissue and put in it the garbage. Derek, go get your homework.
(Inaudible.)
UF2 Mother **** him!
FRANKLIN TURNER Lauren.
LAUREN Turn the light out. Oh, baby.
UF1 Oh my God, I’m sorry.
UM2 Oh -- Oh -- Oh --
Shhh!
LAUREN Oh -- Oh -- Oh -- Oh, baby.
(Moaning)
LAUREN Oh -- Oh -- Oh -- Suck it! Do it! Do it! Oh, baby.
UF2 Lauren.
DEREK JR. What’s that -- What’s that on your arm?
LAUREN That’s mommy’s birthmark.
(Inaudible)
Unknown: Mommy’s
ARAE Do I have to do that right now?
LAUREN Remember
ARAE Mommy. I don’t want to do that.
LAUREN No, it won’t hurt it’s mommy’s friend. It’s not gonna hurt.
That’s my (inaudible) front, that’s my birthmark.
ARAE No.
LAUREN Arae, your birthmark is on your bootie. Did you see Arae’s
birthmark? It’s on her booty, it’s back there on her bootie.
DEREK JR. I got one too?
LAUREN I gotta see where your’s is. Oh, yeah right there,
I thought you had a long birthmark, let me see.
UM1 Yeah.
ARAE Squeal/scream.
LAUREN I’m with you -- I saw the birthmark
DEREK JR. I was (inaudible) Ouch!
LAUREN A birthmark is something that comes out of mommy’s stomach.
Am I going to be safe? You see Arae has a birthmark on her booty?
DEREK JR. Mommy, you gonna blow it up for me?
LAUREN I don’t have enough energy. (Inaudible.)
DEREK JR. Mommy.
LAUREN Arae, cut it out.
(Inaudible male.)
DEREK JR. Mommy, blow this up.

LAUREN Stop. You know what --
JR Hey, Frank.
LAUREN I love you. What ever happened to Arae’s book you brought her?
(Inaudible.)
LAUREN Oh, **** me bad!
UF1 Mother****er, I will beat your damn ass! (Inaudible.)

DEREK JR A nipple -- I call him knucklehead. (Inaudible) Mommy you --
Mommy, I saw her eating you -- Mommy, I saw --
UF? Sh -- sh --
UM? I’m going to (inaudible)
DEREK JR. I told Arae about your friend (inaudible)
UM? I hope you’re (inaudible) I’m kinda tired.
LAUREN Derek, I said be quiet, get that our of my, go put it in the living
room.
FRANKLIN TURNER You’re a damn lie --
DEREK JR. I told Arae -- I saw her eating her -- eating her --
UM? Shut the **** up!

(Moaning)
DEREK JR. Can I watch, mommy?
JR Maybe tomorrow. Hey, Frank. Tomorrow.
DEREK JR. Mommy.

DEREK JR. Are they gonna kill me?
LAUREN Okay, Derek, I don’t want to hear another thing. Derek, cut the --Pull it -- Pull it -- one time and that’s it. That’s it, pull. Oh, Tom -- pull -- pull -- pull -- pull -- pull -- Sh! When you get finished I want you to **** me in the ass.
UM2 Ooh, your booty is so fine.
DEREK JR. Mommy.

UM3 **** me.
UM? Say please.
LAUREN Derek, put the thing over there!
UM? Do it! Now, say thank you.
DEREK JR. They gonna kill all of us!
Shhh!
LAUREN Go put this in the living room. Derek, I said be quiet, get that out of my bed, go sleep and put it in the living room
Shh!
LAUREN Go put this in the living room.
I want you to **** me in the ass.
UM? Oh that booty’s so fine!
(Inaudible.)
UM? I love you butt naked!
(Inaudible.)
DEREK JR. Mommy, it’s got a --
(Moaning.)
UM? When I get up, I gonna kill y’all. I’m gonna **** you up now mother****er. Die mother****ers! I will shoot you.
DEREK JR. Can I watch, mommy?
UM2 Hey, Fred.
UM? I’m a policeman.
LAUREN You gotta keep it moisturized. Okay, stop peeling it.
(Inaudible.)
Shh!
LAUREN Arae, sit up over here.
JR Come on Frank!
UF? I’m a police officer. I do not play. I’m a police officer everyday.
UF? Excuse me?
UM? I’m not gone!
JR. Come on Frank!
UM3 Just do it mother****er.
UM? I’m not gonna shoot you.

ARAE Mommy.
LAUREN What baby.
UM2 Crackhead *****!
UM4 Is Lauren here?

UM2 You got a change of clothes for him?
LAUREN Derek, I mean shut your mouth!

[jtur88]

The police have gotten so brazen, they don't even care if cameras are rolling capturing their behavior on film.

This happened two weeks ago, in El Paso, Texas.

The story: Police detain ABC-7 crew covering crash - KVIA.com El Paso, Las Cruces - Weather, News, Sports -

The video:
YouTube - KVIA-TV Reporter gets Detained

[Hoarfrost]

"Police spokesmen admitted what happened was very unusual" It's only ever unusual when it's caught on camera. Priceless.

[thelogannator123]

no, i don't trust the police, because they are not legally obliged to protect you, their duty is to protect the peace. in many instances people have sued police officers because they did not do enough to protect and save the victim even when it was in their ability, and in ever case the police won.