Embryoes = Human Life. Irrefutable proof: (Chicago, President, thoughts, parent)

[afoigrokerkok]

Originally Posted by dcashley

eeeeeeeeeeeee I guess it's good that you are spending your time here. Otherwise you may be influincing young people.....god help us if that ever happened!

He has 5 kids.

[freedom99]

Originally Posted by Eeeee22895

Oh here we go with the 'nuance' bit again. As if liberals are somehow deep thinkers able to see gray areas while others aren't. The reality is this hooey is all a smokescreen so they can justify do-as-you-please behavior. Sorry, people, some things either right or wrong. You either think it's OK to wantonly kill tiny humans. Or you don't.

Oh please. You lunatics are wasting everyone's time. You're never gonna get what you want because we live in a place called the United States of America not Saudi Arabia, El Salvador, Iran, or whatever backward country you hold in high esteem.

Everytime you pass one of your poorly thought out legislations, a lawsuit is instantaneously brought about proving the complexity of the issue and then exceptions have to be made for the law or it is outright overturned. Even after eight years Bush and GOP rule, you have still failed to do anything about abortion. That in and of itself should tell you about the complexity of the issue, even with all the 'partial birth abortions' and 'late term abortions' mania they created.

Even if you can prove to me that a fetus is a 'human life' (whatever that means since pro-lifers seem back off whenever they hear the consequences of giving constitutional rights to fetuses) it still is not a reason to make it illegal because...

A. If we follow your hysteria that fetuses are 'human beings' entitled to the same government protections as an already born person, then you are going to be hard press to explain and justify to the general public why a pregnant woman is not entitled to the same constitutional rights as everyone else and why doctors must by law (without consent of pregnant woman) take risks that the pregnant woman might die in the interests of defending this 'person'. We'll need conception certificates instead of birth certificates and miscarriages will require a criminal investigation.

and

B. Since, I know you pro-lifers aren't really serious about 'unborn children', this more about you objections to the woman's sex life and her ability to 'dodge the consequences of her actions', you just want to make some abortions illegal based on how you judge the mother's actions. This will never last, becuase people will get their lawyers, and many exceptions will be made and eventually the law will be found unconstitutional since you fail to clearly define what you are protecting. Again, this is the USA not Iran.

So quit wasting peoples time with your mania and find something beneficial you cold be doing to help already born children (you conservatives are usually opposed to social spending and instead are obsessed with people's sex lives).

And if you are a real crazy, I dare you to pass a law mandating a nine year old who was raped by her grandpa to give birth. You won't be happy with how things work in the USA.

[FormerCaliforniaGirl]

Hey eeeeeeee,

You haven't changed my mind in any way whatsoever, you haven't won this debate, and you haven't done the pro-life cause any service with your illogical arguments.

But what you have done, is outlasted me. I've grown weary of this debate because it is one of those issues in life where there will never be a concensus. I think the best definition of "futility" is '"the abortion debate".

So here are my last words in this thread:

Yes, an embryo is alive and it is human. Yes, it is genetically equal to a baby that has been born. I have never refuted this (nor have most other posters here). What we're trying to impart on you is that the woman carrying the embryo has the right to decide if she wants to carry it to term....NOT YOU. Abortion is one of those few circumstances where it is justified to end a human life. Even YOU admit there are circumstances where it is justified to end human life, when you condone killing in war.

So if you want to argue, then present your arguments as to why, in ALL cases, abortion is never justified. But please go beyond the "because abortions kill babies" dogma. We've heard that. We acknowledge abortions kill babies (albeit in the very earliest stages of development). But AGAIN, we argue that this is justifiable due to a woman's right to decide whether she wants to carry an embryo to term. It is her body.

But I'll tell you what. I'm done here. You just keep on with your crusade if it helps you to sleep better at night. And the rest of us
will continue to make sure that religious nuts like you don't thwart abortion rights. Pro-choicers have won. Abortion is legal. And under Obama, that's not going to change. Get used to it.

[ferretkona]

Originally Posted by Eeeee22895

A human embryo from the moment of conception is exactly the same genetically as the adult human being it will become (barring premature death) except in stage of development. There is no other difference. Period.

This definition has ended many abortion arguments. Nobody has ever been able to dispute or find an exception that invalidates any part of it.

A corpse is exactly the same genetically as the adult human being that came before it.

This is a prime reason we have a seperation of state and church. To protect the gov.

[Eeeee22895]

Originally Posted by freedom99

Oh please. You lunatics are wasting everyone's time. You're never gonna get what you want because we live in a place called the United States of America not Saudi Arabia, El Salvador, Iran, or whatever backward country you hold in high esteem.



Everytime you pass one of your poorly thought out legislations, a lawsuit is instantaneously brought about proving the complexity of the issue and then exceptions have to be made for the law or it is outright overturned.

Hmm. Are you talking about the 'poorly written' leftwing attempts to overturn the Partial Birth Abortion Ban who were promptly shut down by the USSC?. Yeah, I remember them.


Even after eight years Bush and GOP rule, you have still failed to do anything about abortion. That in and of itself should tell you about the complexity of the issue, even with all the 'partial birth abortions' and 'late term abortions' mania they created.

Let's see. during the Bush administration, the Senate was GOP for a total of five and a half years with an average margin of 51-49, notwithstanding liberals disguised as Republicans like Specter, Snowe, and Collins.. Do you really think you could pass abortion legislation with that tiny of a margin (or deficit)?

Even if you can prove to me that a fetus is a 'human life' (whatever that means

Simple. It means embryos are living from the moment of conception. Why is this concept complicated for leftwingers?

since pro-lifers seem back off whenever they hear the consequences of giving constitutional rights to fetuses)

We do? I don't remember backing off. Bring the constitutional rights on!!

it still is not a reason to make it illegal because...

A. If we follow your hysteria that fetuses are 'human beings' entitled to the same government protections as an already born person, then you are going to be hard press to explain and justify to the general public why a pregnant woman is not entitled to the same constitutional rights as everyone else and why doctors must by law (without consent of pregnant woman) take risks that the pregnant woman might die in the interests of defending this 'person'.

This bit of rambling makes no sense. How would a pregnant woman not have the same constitutional rights as her baby? Fewer than 500 women a year die in childbirth. The vast majority of them are overweight and die of strokes or aneurysms. The canard that "we must choose between the woman's life and the child's" is so rare as to be virtually nonexistent.

Miscarriages will require a criminal investigation.

. Miscarriages would only be a problem if the doctor detects foul play. This is no different than if a child goes to the ER with a head injury, and the parents are questioned separately. Happens ever hour of every day.

and

B. Since, I know you pro-lifers aren't really serious about 'unborn children',

We aren't? What makes you think that? We adopt more than our share of them.

this more about you objections to the woman's sex life and her ability to 'dodge the consequences of her actions', you just want to make some abortions illegal based on how you judge the mother's actions.

No we don't. We want to make ALL abortions illegal.

This will never last, becuase people will get their lawyers, and many exceptions will be made and eventually the law will be found unconstitutional since you fail to clearly define what you are protecting. Again, this is the USA not Iran.

So quit wasting peoples time with your mania and find something beneficial you cold be doing to help already born children (you conservatives are usually opposed to social spending and instead are obsessed with people's sex lives).

The only time I'm wasting is the time I've spent responding to your incoherence.

And if you are a real crazy, I dare you to pass a law mandating a nine year old who was raped by her grandpa to give birth. You won't be happy with how things work in the USA.

Yah, that would be highly unfortunate. But I don't see what would make that child less a human than any other child.

.

[cruxan]

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee even if abortion was illegal. women would just get an abortion in a under ground black market clinics..the world is already over populated... you know a turtle lays like 250 eggs and most of them hatch but as soon as the juvinile turtles make a bee line for the sea shore the predators snach them up and eat them before they even get to the water.....nature at work keeping a ballance.. don't you think that we humans should keep some kind of ballance... if we don't the future generations will be living a living hell...get real everything has a limit.

[Eeeee22895]

Originally Posted by FormerCaliforniaGirl

Hey eeeeeeee,

You haven't changed my mind in any way whatsoever, you haven't won this debate, and you haven't done the pro-life cause any service with your illogical arguments.

1400 posts in five days say you're wrong.

But what you have done, is outlasted me.

That's nothing new. I've outlasted lots of women.

I've grown weary of this debate because it is one of those issues in life where there will never be a concensus. I think the best definition of "futility" is '"the abortion debate".

It's only futile because pro-abortioners aren't interested in truth or logic. It's convenience for the ladies and votes for the politicians. Believe me, if fetuses could vote, all those Democrat politicians would be leading the pro-life marches.

So here are my last words in this thread:

Yes, an embryo is alive and it is human. Yes, it is genetically equal to a baby that has been born. I have never refuted this (nor have most other posters here).

Yes. You've admitted it's human life, and you plain flat out don't care.

What we're trying to impart on you is that the woman carrying the embryo has the right to decide if she wants to carry it to term....NOT YOU.

Sorry, I would (and have) intervened in rape situations against the rapist's wishes. I would intervene in an armed robbery against the robber's wishes. And I am working to stop abortion against the baby-killer's wishes. So yes, I DO have the right to decide in all these instances.

Abortion is one of those few circumstances where it is justified to end a human life. Even YOU admit there are circumstances where it is justified to end human life, when you condone killing in war.

The only possible justification for taking a life is in the course of self-defense, as in a necessary war, such as Iraq was. I have never heard of a case where a fetus was attacking a woman, and the woman needed to defend herself. The usual reason a woman aborts is so she can continue on living her self-centered do-as-you-please lifestyle.

So if you want to argue, then present your arguments as to why, in ALL cases, abortion is never justified. But please go beyond the "because abortions kill babies" dogma. We've heard that. We acknowledge abortions kill babies (albeit in the very earliest stages of development). But AGAIN, we argue that this is justifiable due to a woman's right to decide whether she wants to carry an embryo to term. It is her body.

This is where you screw up, logically. The woman is secondary in this whole process because the consequences to her are minor compared to the consequences to the baby.

But I'll tell you what. I'm done here. You just keep on with your crusade if it helps you to sleep better at night. And the rest of us
will continue to make sure that religious nuts like you don't thwart abortion rights.

Religion? Have you ever heard me use religion in an abortion argument?

Pro-choicers have won.

Are you kidding? Pro-lifers have won big victories in the Supreme Court in recent years. Besides that, there is a law of human nature, and that is evil laws eventually come to an end. We've seen it with slavery, Japanese Internment, racial lynching, the Soviet Union, all totalitarian regimes. We'll see it with abortion as well. It's just a matter of time before this savagery is reversed.

Abortion is legal. And under Obama, that's not going to change. Get used to it.

Fortunately for America, Obama is four-and-out at most.

.

[moonshadow]

Originally Posted by Eeeee22895

Is that supposed to make extermination of children acceptable?

As previously stated as far as I'm concerned it is neither extermination NOR children we are speaking about.

Originally Posted by Eeeee22895

I just throw your words back at you, mate. You demonize yourself with your own words.

eeee you've barely answered any of the points I've made so please stop deluding yourself that a) you're throwing anything "back" at me "mate" and b) I'm not demonizing myself but I don't expect that you would comprehend that, comprehension seemingly not one of your strong points.

Originally Posted by Eeeee22895

Such a nasty little humanizing detail, aren't fingers?

Fingers don't develop till around week 8 and around 89% of abortions are performed in the first 12 weeks (if you go by the first link or 91% before 12 weeks if you go by the second. Not that I'm a big believer in Fox news being particularly accurate) 61.3% before 9 weeks. I'd hazzard a guess that many women are aiming to abort before the embryo develops to the fingers and toes stage AND it would appear that it's things like funding and arrangement delays that hamper that.

• Fifty-eight percent of abortion patients say they would have liked to have had their abortion earlier. Nearly 60% of women who experienced a delay in obtaining an abortion cite the time it took to make arrangements and raise money.

Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States

FOXNews.com - Fast Facts: U.S. Abortion Statistics - U.S. & World

Originally Posted by Eeeee22895

By using different applicable words, I'm "changing a story?" Perhaps you should stop telling stories.

I'm not telling stories simply restating your "facts" and pointing out your inconsistencies.

Originally Posted by Eeeee22895

I tell the truth. If you find it insulting, maybe you figure out why the truth feels bad.

No, you've said a lot of things, but I'm not seeing much "truth".
You are insulting but don't pat yourself on the back that anything you've said has made me feel bad. I'm struggling not to completely disregard anything you have to say.

Originally Posted by Eeeee22895

Isn't that an Aussie term of endearment?

Yes and seeing as you are neither Aussie or endearing to me or I to you, I'm not sure why you're bothering to waste either of our time by pretending you meant it in that context.

Originally Posted by Eeeee22895

That's good advice. Keep your legs closed if you can't provide for them.

My sex life is my business.

Originally Posted by Eeeee22895

I've yet to figure out how fighting for the lives of children make someone an unfit parent or a bad person. Seems to me that the ones who would want kids butchered would be worse parents and worse people.

You've yet to show that there's one person on this thread that advocates the butchering of kids other than yourself who seems to find torture acceptable by your refusal to answer questions regarding it. As a parent you decide how your children are raised. A person who put their child up for adoption is still a parent. You and I do not hold the same values. I would not want any child of mine raised with your values and as I can't choose who will adopt my offspring I choose not to have them to ensure that.

Originally Posted by Eeeee22895

That's so damn GENEROUS of you. Volunteering OTHER people to be put to death. You are so compassionate that you would do it painlessly. WHO THE HELL ARE YOU to make that kind of a decision for any other person? Now, if you want to off yourself, that is your business. Be my guest. Leave others out of it.

Thank you! I think I'm a very generous and compassionate person. Not sure where you're getting the idea about volunteering other people to be put to death. I most certainly am the person according to law that gets to decide if I want to host an embryo or not. Looks like you're off to confession Sunday morning for inciting suicide again.

Originally Posted by Eeeee22895

I'm better at this than you, mate. Give it up.

Better at this than me? Sure! haha! That's what this is all about.

[J double R]

and the smokescreen hypocrisy continues.....

[skchi]

Originally Posted by Eeeee22895

Fortunately for America, Obama is four-and-out at most.

What's that supposed to mean?