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Old 05-11-2009, 06:00 PM
 
Location: USA
4,980 posts, read 8,213,818 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Danielle* View Post
An embryo can not sustain life on it's own. An adult can.

Neither can a baby.
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Old 05-12-2009, 07:07 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
2,868 posts, read 8,445,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nebulous1 View Post
Neither can a baby.
Again,,,a baby does not need to be leeched on to a uterus to live. It can survive outside of the womb. A baby can.
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Old 05-12-2009, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Dorchester
2,602 posts, read 4,213,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Danielle* View Post
I agree!! Most pro-lifers are pro death penalty as well...Makes a lot of sense to me?!? It is not OK to abort a blob of cells but it is OK to fry and adult to death. MmmmK.
Show me a fetus that has raped, tortured and killed a 10 year-old girl and I'll agree with you.
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Old 05-12-2009, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Dorchester
2,602 posts, read 4,213,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Danielle* View Post
Again,,,a baby does not need to be leeched on to a uterus to live. It can survive outside of the womb. A baby can.
It is very telling that you use the word "leech" when describing a gestating human being.

It also is funny to me how the value of a fetus is in direct proportion to the state of mind of the mother carrying it.
-If the mother wants the baby then the fetus is more valuable than all the gold the world will ever dream of. It may even be given a name.
-If the mother doesn't want the baby then it is simply a parasitic blob to be ripped out of the womb and disposed of as bio-waste.
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Old 05-12-2009, 02:28 PM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,939,282 times
Reputation: 3848
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomDot View Post
It is very telling that you use the word "leech" when describing a gestating human being.
The terms "parasite" and "leech" are being used in their literal sense, not to disparage the fetus. Until very late in the pregnancy, a fetus cannot survive except by sapping the body of the host, and since in every other situation, no person may be compelled to donate his or her body to another, this shouldn't be required in pregnancy either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomDot View Post
It also is funny to me how the value of a fetus is in direct proportion to the state of mind of the mother carrying it.
-If the mother wants the baby then the fetus is more valuable than all the gold the world will ever dream of, maybe even given a name.
-If the mother doesn't want the baby then it is simply a parasitic blob to be ripped out of the womb and disposed of as bio-waste.
It may be funny, but it isn't for you or for the government to dictate to particular woman how she should feel about an entity that she is carrying in her body and that depends on her body -- and no one else's -- for its survival and growth.
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Old 05-12-2009, 09:51 PM
 
Location: East bay, California
16 posts, read 38,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
It may be funny, but it isn't for you or for the government to dictate to particular woman how she should feel about an entity that she is carrying in her body and that depends on her body -- and no one else's -- for its survival and growth.
This seems to be opposing a strawman. The topic you should be arguing about is what the criteria is for a living thing to be given the right to be able to live; that is, what a person has that makes it wrong to kill them and to what extent this stretches in regard to earlier stages of life. I personally think that if something has the thought capacity to understands its own existence it should at least be given a chance. This is a better topic to argue against rather than the narrowminded, "how [a women] should feel about an entity that she is carrying in her body and that depends on her body". Could one not also say that others have no right to say whether or not is it right or wrong to murder someone. Of course they could, but what needs to be thought about are the ethics of the larger community rather than one's personal beliefs.
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Old 05-12-2009, 10:34 PM
 
985 posts, read 2,300,990 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatsolio View Post
This seems to be opposing a strawman. The topic you should be arguing about is what the criteria is for a living thing to be given the right to be able to live; that is, what a person has that makes it wrong to kill them and to what extent this stretches in regard to earlier stages of life. I personally think that if something has the thought capacity to understands its own existence it should at least be given a chance. This is a better topic to argue against rather than the narrowminded, "how [a women] should feel about an entity that she is carrying in her body and that depends on her body". Could one not also say that others have no right to say whether or not is it right or wrong to murder someone. Of course they could, but what needs to be thought about are the ethics of the larger community rather than one's personal beliefs.
An embryo does not have the capacity to understand its own existence. Humans start the process of becoming self aware when they are born

LINK: http://www.psychology.emory.edu/cogn...-awareness.pdf
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Old 05-12-2009, 10:56 PM
 
Location: East bay, California
16 posts, read 38,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaye02 View Post
An embryo does not have the capacity to understand its own existence. Humans start the process of becoming self aware when they are born

LINK: http://www.psychology.emory.edu/cogn...-awareness.pdf
If I misunderstood the reson why you posted this, correct me but, I never said that I thought an embryo had the capacity to understand its own existence. As you point out, it does not possess this ability. This is something I assumed to be true, although I never thought to look it up. This is exactly the type of attack I am talking about, in that it focuses on the weakest point of an argument. You probably assumed I was against abortion. In attempting to refute the weakest part of my argument (which really wasn't meant to be an argument in the first place) you only stated something most people already assumed to be true.
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Old 05-12-2009, 11:10 PM
 
985 posts, read 2,300,990 times
Reputation: 722
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatsolio View Post
If I misunderstood the reson why you posted this, correct me but, I never said that I thought an embryo had the capacity to understand its own existence. As you point out, it does not possess this ability. This is something I assumed to be true, although I never thought to look it up. This is exactly the type of attack I am talking about, in that it focuses on the weakest point of an argument. You probably assumed I was against abortion. In attempting to refute the weakest part of my argument (which really wasn't meant to be an argument in the first place) you only stated something most people already assumed to be true.
You said "I personally think that if something has the thought capacity to understands its own existence it should at least be given a chance." I was just stating that an embryo does not have that capacity, some people don't realize this. I'm not sure the OP realizes this, for example . Since we are talking about abortion, which happens before birth, it is perfectly relevant to this thread. The self awareness thing has been addressed in earlier posts, which is a factor, imo anyways, in "what the criteria is for a living thing to be given the right to be able to live"
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Old 05-12-2009, 11:13 PM
 
Location: East bay, California
16 posts, read 38,163 times
Reputation: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaye02 View Post
You said "I personally think that if something has the thought capacity to understands its own existence it should at least be given a chance." I was just stating that an embryo does not have that capacity, some people don't realize this. I'm not sure the OP realizes this, for example . Since we are talking about abortion, which happens before birth, it is perfectly relevant to this thread. The self awareness thing has been addressed in earlier posts, which is a factor, imo anyways, in "what the criteria is for a living thing to be given the right to be able to live"
Well the OP is an idiot... but anyways thank you for clarifying. But not angry at you just, people like the OP and Danielle, Tomdot, etc. for having idiotic arguments that go around in circles.
My personal opinion on this by the way is that abortion should be considered as whatever the majority believes it is. Murder is only wrong because we, collectively as a race, say it is (or at least, as I see it, most people do). This is reflected in that the government punishes those who murder. So whatever one believes about murder is irrelevant. Either way you are punished for it. The same can be held true for abortion. However it gets more complicated here as abortion is not seen as clear cut right or wrong.

Last edited by fatsolio; 05-12-2009 at 11:23 PM..
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