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Old 05-15-2009, 08:40 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,921 times
Reputation: 822

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomDot View Post
What if Despite the fact that the mother is addicted to crack and abuses the baby? It gets taken away from her, forms insecure attachments, and has an entire childhood where it's bounced from foster home to foster home.
That child does grow to be a healthy, happy well-adjusted and functioning member of society?
It happens all the time. Some of the biggest success stories in history were people who came from extreme poverty and dysfunction.
No, it doesn't happen all the time. Actually, a lot of time the mother simply f-ed the kid in the sense that the chemicals may have led to mental disabilities. Bouncing from foster home to foster home will not provide a stable network for the child.

Look, I personally would tell my GF to keep it. With that said, I can't dictate my life on others. So I'm personally "pro-life", but really "pro-choice", since I can't even fathom the experiences of others.

See, a lot of pro-lifers put their own experiences or bring up exceptional stories. Well, the people that get abortions are doing it because they REALLY can't support the child (due to age and/or economics), they will be in a large amount of trouble from parents (imagine telling an abusive parent you are pregnant as a teen), they have been raped, or other medical complications.

Prevention of pregnancy is key, and suprisingly one of the largest failures of American society is sex ed. We have the highest first world teen pregnancy rate. Abstinence only education is not helping matters. Resources for the poor are also minimal at best.
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Old 05-15-2009, 09:07 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,538,289 times
Reputation: 35864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
Let me remind you that Great Debates is about discussing issues, not each other. It is obvious that you have a personal animus towards me, and your injection of that animus into a substantive thread is totally inappropriate. In the future, I suggest that you use DM to vent any frustration over what you believe are my "fixations" and other mental deficiencies that you have accused me of. Further, if you believe my posts don't belong in Great Debates, I suggest you report them; I am sure the moderators will appreciate it very much. Yet another option you have, since everything I post seems to greatly upset you, is to put me on "ignore". I will be more than happy to address your personal complaints against me in private. In public, kindly try to control your personal hostilities and leave me alone.

See, Holmes, Resnick, Kilpatrick and Best, "Rape-related pregnancy: estimates and descriptive characteristics from a national sample of women", American Journal of Obstetrics & Gynecology, August 1996.

I have no personal animus toward you. You made a statement which I believe to be A) incorrect and B) a diversion from the OP's topic. Both are legitimate criticisms. I apologize if I incorrectly saw it as an intentional attempt to divert the topic. It is I who stated that your comment was off-topic and I did not wish to pursue it here. And I don't

In future, when you wish to use a published report as a basis for your representation, and that information is not linked to online, please provide a brief summary of the contents so we can all determine if it bears out your statement. If Holmes et.al. used the term "frequently" to describe the incidence of rape-engendered pregnancy, that is good enough for me.
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Old 05-15-2009, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
3,196 posts, read 4,716,018 times
Reputation: 976
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
. So I'm personally "pro-life", but really "pro-choice", since I can't even fathom the experiences of others.

Prevention of pregnancy is key, and suprisingly one of the largest failures of American society is sex ed. We have the highest first world teen pregnancy rate. Abstinence only education is not helping matters. Resources for the poor are also minimal at best.
I agree with you 100%....the solution to the problem of teen pregnancies must be found. Interestingly, the problem has to be solved in the home. It can't be solved by schools, police, child protective services, or churches. Parents must recognize their personal level of responsibility to raise their kids.
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Old 05-15-2009, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,538,289 times
Reputation: 35864
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcashley View Post
I agree with you 100%....the solution to the problem of teen pregnancies must be found. Interestingly, the problem has to be solved in the home. It can't be solved by schools, police, child protective services, or churches. Parents must recognize their personal level of responsibility to raise their kids.
Yes, they can and they must. Your solution, to blame every individual for a failure of personal responsibility, has left us with an increasing stack of mounting problems. It is the responsibility of all Americans to address the problems of all other Americans, and not just smugly sit there and say "I told you so". So it IS incumbent on our schools, our churches, our police, our agencies, to recognize problems where they exist, and establish internal strategies for defusing and mitigating them.

Sitting there and saying "I told you so" does not fulfill your Preamble obligation as a citizen to "promote the general welfare" of a "more perfect union".
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Old 05-15-2009, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
3,196 posts, read 4,716,018 times
Reputation: 976
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
It is the responsibility of all Americans to address the problems of all other Americans, ".
Russia tried this with Communism. Result: Failure.
Germany tried this with Nazism. Result: Failure.
China tried this with Maosism. Result: Failure.

Whether you like it or not, it boils down in the final analysis to personal responsibility. If you try to legislate ethical decisions, you generally get less of each (ethics and decision making).

If people refuse to take responsibility for themselves, it is not my job to "correct" them; it is not my responsibility to "support" them; it is their job and their responsibility to ensure that both themselves and their children are adequately provided for in terms of material goods, self control, and ethical decision making.

This is only ONE of the costs of living in a free society. There are other costs as well, but this one is perhaps the most difficult for people to understand and act on.
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Old 05-15-2009, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,538,289 times
Reputation: 35864
I already cited one of the costs of living in a free society under the stipulations of the Constitution of the United States.

I understand that you personally possess the unique privilege of benefitting from all the blesslings of liberty, without any of the obligations to promote the general welfare. I understand that the Founders, centuries ago, made a special exception for Dcashley. It says it right in there, and the Supreme Court has upheld your privileged status. But you are a special exception, and the rest of us recognize that the rights and the responsibilities go hand in hand, and we have to kind of help out to make this a more perfect union for you to enjoy without doing anything to make it better.
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Old 05-15-2009, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
3,196 posts, read 4,716,018 times
Reputation: 976
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I already cited one of the costs of living in a free society under the stipulations of the Constitution of the United States.

I understand that you personally possess the unique privilege of benefitting from all the blesslings of liberty, without any of the obligations to promote the general welfare. I understand that the Founders, centuries ago, made a special exception for Dcashley. It says it right in there, and the Supreme Court has upheld your privileged status. But you are a special exception, and the rest of us recognize that the rights and the responsibilities go hand in hand, and we have to kind of help out to make this a more perfect union for you to enjoy without doing anything to make it better.
Sarcasm does not improve the debate. It just creates angry feelings and actually impedes discussion....so, do you care to rephrase that sarcastic and biting statement? Or, alternatively, do you want this discussion to degrade to name calling and other types of non-productive behavior?
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Old 05-15-2009, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,538,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcashley View Post
Sarcasm does not improve the debate. It just creates angry feelings and actually impedes discussion....so, do you care to rephrase that sarcastic and biting statement? Or, alternatively, do you want this discussion to degrade to name calling and other types of non-productive behavior?
One-track mind postings that invariably distill every element of the human condition down to a single pet fixation (personal rsponsibliity) regardless of the topic do not foster good debate, either. This is a thread about embryos fercrissake, and you can't even give it a rest. In the past few hours, you said exactly the same thing on the obesity thread.

No, I don't intend to rephrase anything. I call them as I see them. You have repeated over and over again in many threads exactly the same invariable dogmatic mantra, which somebody probably told you in the third grade and yo haven;t thought about it critically since. And your mantra is that no American has any responsibility whatsoever to do anything to mitigate any of the bumps in the road except sitting there and telling everyone that they should have taken your advice. Now you are even saying there isn't even any point in suggesting that the school might take a look at themselves and see if there is anything they can do to improve the social conditions of America today. Correct me if I'm wrong---you did say that, didn't you? (" It can't be solved by schools,. . . ")

Because the only solution you have ever offered to any issue in this forum is to tell people over and over and over again that personal responsibility is of such overriding importance that it is a waste of resources to try to correct anything in our society, except to whack everybody up aside the head with a rolled up newspaper and say "Look at dcashley, why can't you be like him?"

Last edited by jtur88; 05-15-2009 at 02:46 PM..
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Old 05-15-2009, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
3,196 posts, read 4,716,018 times
Reputation: 976
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
One-track mind postings that invariably distill every element of the human condition down to a single pet fixation (personal rsponsibliity) regardless of the topic do not foster good debate, either. This is a thread about embryos fercrissake, and you can't even give it a rest. In the past few hours, you said exactly the same thing on the obesity thread.

No, I don't intend to rephrase anything. I call them as I see them. You have repeated over and over again in many threads exactly the same invariable dogmatic mantra, which somebody probably told you in the third grade and yo haven;t thought about it critically since. And your mantra is that no American has any responsibility whatsoever to do anything to mitigate any of the bumps in the road except sitting there and telling everyone that they should have taken your advice. Now you are even saying there isn't even any point in suggesting that the school might take a look at themselves and see if there is anything they can do to improve the social conditions of America today. Correct me if I'm wrong---you did say that, didn't you? (" It can't be solved by schools,. . . ")

Because the only solution you have ever offered to any issue in this forum is to tell people over and over and over again that personal responsibility is of such overriding importance that it is a waste of resources to try to correct anything in our society, except to whack everybody up aside the head with a rolled up newspaper and say "Look at dcashley, why can't you be like him?"
Personal respsonsibilty IS that important. The single biggest problem in America today is that people (such as you) refuse to recognize the responsibilty of the individual. This has come together in a welfare state with open borders--we cannot afford that--and it is not in the best interests of ourselves, our children or our nation. As long as people (such as you) refuse to accept responsibility for the problems that people (such as you) create, the problems will not be alleviated. As much as people (such as you) wish the government, churches, or "someone else" to help there can be no improvement--that is, unless, of course you consider increased amounts of learned helplessness an improvement.

If you want things to improve, then you need to DO something. You need to accept responsibility for your part. If you will not do that, then I have no empathy for you. However, on the other hand if for some reason, such as physical or mental infirmity, you cannot help yourself, then I am there to help you--any way I can.

Unfortunately, too many Americans blame their overweight on "others." Too many Americans blame teen pregnancy on the failure of "others." Too many Americans refuse to take responsibility for their own actions.

Oh, and by the way, I am fat. (Yes, it is my responsibility. I eat too much because I want to. I fully understand the long term health implications and it is my choice to do this.)

And...I was a teenage father. I understand how convienant it can be to ask for help, and to focus on other people's (your) short commings instead of looking at myself.

So, as far as I am concerned, and I am sure that I speak for miliions of Americans, the mantra of "give me, help me, oh please" is one that is hurthing the fabric of our culture. You blame me for saying my concept of "personal responsibility" is too simple. Yes. It is simple. Is it easy to do? Not for most people. Just because something is simple doesn't mean it is wrong, nor does it mean it is a bad idea.

So, dear heart, expain to me how a vibrant culture can work without personal responsibility. Then explain to me how blaming others for problems helps a culture improve.
Dan
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Old 05-15-2009, 05:41 PM
 
Location: Sherwood, OR
663 posts, read 1,606,282 times
Reputation: 658
Stop the bickering....PLEASE. I want this thread to die in so many ways. Every time it pops to the top I get annoyed with the idiotic title and start thinking about eeee's claims to be intelligent.
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