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Old 10-01-2009, 11:33 AM
 
Location: MS
3,949 posts, read 3,853,872 times
Reputation: 1370

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday View Post
While you are looking things up - why don't you find links to stories where a Police Officer had their gun taken from then and then was shot and killed with their own weapon.

I believe you can find more than a couple of stories like this -
I guess my attempt at humor was lost somewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
At least my attemp at poking fun at one 'facts' that are pushed by the anti groups used a real story. Maybe I should have said 'Ban all of the axes. Do it for the terrorists.'?

 
Old 10-01-2009, 04:29 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
13,341 posts, read 10,898,841 times
Reputation: 12285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Knocker View Post
Yup, but all those things you so proudly mention are exactly why the second amendment is important. The citizenry is supposed to have access to state of the art military type arms. We dont though, and thanks to control freaks like you Ruby Ridge & Waco happened and will again.
Any commander ordering his troops to fire on American civilians should be hung from the nearest tree.
The posy you were responding to here touched on a force of armed citizens vs the US military.
Waco and Ruby ridge were operations against citizens who were backed into a corner. The advantages that JT gives military/LE personnel is correct in such cases. However, all the snazzy hardware does not mean much in a situation where the citizen force is not tied down, and cornered in a residence or other structure, like the Weavers and the Davidians were. Sure , they got creamed, they were outnumbered, outgunned, and the Feds knew exactly where they were.In an out and out armed revolt, that will not be the case. people will be scattered out everywhere, mixed in with all kinds of people, all the satellites , tanks, artillery, air power and other hardware does not lend such a huge advantage if the Feds don't know where it is needed, or going to be needed. When folks take the position that small arms will be useless against the regular military, they are operating under the assumption that armed citizens will be conducting a gentlemanly war, trying to meet the military head on in a large campaign and have a large, consolidated force. So sorry, ain't gonna happen. Sure , the military is trained and equipped for head on action, they far outgun the general citizenry. But who says anyone is in a huge hurry to get into a straight up horn locking? Small unit, guerilla tactics are a large army's worst nightmare. All the high tech goodies and firepower don't do a shred of good if the ones leading that force have no clue as to where and how to deploy it, and the enemy they are trying to engage is not cooperating by fighting on their terms. The largest armies in the world have been , repeatedly, cut to pieces by rag tag guerilla groups armed with little more than just rifles.
 
Old 10-01-2009, 06:57 PM
 
Location: In a house
5,230 posts, read 7,318,833 times
Reputation: 2558
Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
The posy you were responding to here touched on a force of armed citizens vs the US military.
Waco and Ruby ridge were operations against citizens who were backed into a corner. The advantages that JT gives military/LE personnel is correct in such cases. However, all the snazzy hardware does not mean much in a situation where the citizen force is not tied down, and cornered in a residence or other structure, like the Weavers and the Davidians were. Sure , they got creamed, they were outnumbered, outgunned, and the Feds knew exactly where they were.In an out and out armed revolt, that will not be the case. people will be scattered out everywhere, mixed in with all kinds of people, all the satellites , tanks, artillery, air power and other hardware does not lend such a huge advantage if the Feds don't know where it is needed, or going to be needed. When folks take the position that small arms will be useless against the regular military, they are operating under the assumption that armed citizens will be conducting a gentlemanly war, trying to meet the military head on in a large campaign and have a large, consolidated force. So sorry, ain't gonna happen. Sure , the military is trained and equipped for head on action, they far outgun the general citizenry. But who says anyone is in a huge hurry to get into a straight up horn locking? Small unit, guerilla tactics are a large army's worst nightmare. All the high tech goodies and firepower don't do a shred of good if the ones leading that force have no clue as to where and how to deploy it, and the enemy they are trying to engage is not cooperating by fighting on their terms. The largest armies in the world have been , repeatedly, cut to pieces by rag tag guerilla groups armed with little more than just rifles.
Agreed,
Its happening in Iraq & Afghanistan today that our technologically superior military is frustrated by small groups of insurgents.

But my real point was simply that the constitutional amendment was meant to secure the peoples ability to arm themselves with modern military weaponry. Not tanks & fighter jets perhaps, but certainly infantry small arms. Today's M4 is the equivalent of yesteryear's Brown Bess.
Its hard for many people to think of a muzzleloader as an "assault weapon" but in the 18th century they most certainly were.
 
Old 10-02-2009, 09:16 AM
 
Location: NW Nevada
13,341 posts, read 10,898,841 times
Reputation: 12285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Knocker View Post
Agreed,
Its happening in Iraq & Afghanistan today that our technologically superior military is frustrated by small groups of insurgents.

But my real point was simply that the constitutional amendment was meant to secure the peoples ability to arm themselves with modern military weaponry. Not tanks & fighter jets perhaps, but certainly infantry small arms. Today's M4 is the equivalent of yesteryear's Brown Bess.
Its hard for many people to think of a muzzleloader as an "assault weapon" but in the 18th century they most certainly were.
Very true. Something that is not given a lot of attention is that the original colonists, during the time of the revolution. were actually using weapons that were superior to standard issue arms. Many of them any way. The Pennsylvania long rifle was far and away a better weapon than the Brown Bess musket. That is actually irrelelvent, just interesting.. The M4, M1A, AR15 etc are indeed the new Brown Bess, so to speak. In the true spirit of the 2nd amendment, it could be argued that the selector switch should be allowed that extra setting for citizen use. I , personally, don't need or want full auto or burst fire, but, there has never been, to my knowledge, a crime , of any type, commited with a LEGALLY owned full auto weapon. Gangs have all kinds of military grade hardware, as do terrorists and other threats to the general citizenry. Why should said citizens be denied access to weapons that level the field? At the very least, there should not even be any debate as to private citizens being allowed , without restriction, to own semi auto service style rifles. Having such rifles should actually be encouraged for honest citizens. That was the intent of the CMP, to train and equip the citizens with service style arms.An armed , and ready , citizenry, is a good thing.
 
Old 10-02-2009, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,523,609 times
Reputation: 35864
What need be kept in mind, though, is that logistical support is "standard issue", and the government has infiitely deep pockets to ensure that that important tactical element is adequate to save the day.
 
Old 10-02-2009, 08:37 PM
 
Location: mid wyoming
1,985 posts, read 5,861,904 times
Reputation: 1815
You'll never disarm the criminals or the government. So I'll just keep my guns.
 
Old 10-02-2009, 08:56 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
13,341 posts, read 10,898,841 times
Reputation: 12285
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
What need be kept in mind, though, is that logistical support is "standard issue", and the government has infiitely deep pockets to ensure that that important tactical element is adequate to save the day.
True indeed, but that very logistical advantage is a boon to a small guerilla force. As in Back to Bataan, when John Wayne was talking to a demoralized Filipino. The man said, "But sir, the Japs have more guns than we do"! "Well son, where did you get that rifle and bandoliers"? "Killed a *** sir"! Well, son kill a few more". A small number of fighters mad the Japanese miserable during the war. They did not have it easy, but they survived. They raided camps and plundered convoys, gained intell from prisoners, they took food ammo medicine and weapons from the Japanese and made a go of it. Just as would happen here if the citizens of this country had to fight an occupying army. The size of a force is secondary to it's will to fight and dedication.
 
Old 10-02-2009, 10:06 PM
 
Location: In a house
5,230 posts, read 7,318,833 times
Reputation: 2558
The Gov'ts pockets will not be infinately deep either if they openly take on the citizenry that is footing the bill. If the infrastructure of our country goes kaput & people cannot work they cannot pay taxes to fund the corruption. Its pretty far fetched to believe that it will ever get that far here with our voluntary military. I think rather quickly we would see mass defection & desertion on a very large scale if they were ordered to fight the general population rather than isolated groups. I think the end result is plain & its not something we really need to worry about. We need worry about legislators & control freaks, not generals & soldiers. Soldiers generally love their country & remember who they are and where they came from, sadly the same cannot be said for our elite silver spoon fed political class.
You know the type, the guys that would tell us how hard we need to work to save the economy they helped ruin, then fly across the world on our dime to try & get the Olympics to come to their home town. How much did that meaningless stunt cost the taxpayers?
 
Old 10-03-2009, 06:17 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,523,609 times
Reputation: 35864
Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
True indeed, but that very logistical advantage is a boon to a small guerilla force. As in Back to Bataan, when John Wayne was talking to a demoralized Filipino. The man said, "But sir, the Japs have more guns than we do"! "Well son, where did you get that rifle and bandoliers"? "Killed a *** sir"! Well, son kill a few more". A small number of fighters mad the Japanese miserable during the war. They did not have it easy, but they survived. They raided camps and plundered convoys, gained intell from prisoners, they took food ammo medicine and weapons from the Japanese and made a go of it. Just as would happen here if the citizens of this country had to fight an occupying army. The size of a force is secondary to it's will to fight and dedication.
The Filipinos were fighting against a force of regulars who had the attendant problems of logistics on a hostile front. That would not be the case of US federals fighting on their home soil. So your comparison is not relevant. Colorful arguments do not trump rational ones.
 
Old 10-03-2009, 05:20 PM
 
Location: vagabond
2,631 posts, read 4,831,021 times
Reputation: 1300
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
The Filipinos were fighting against a force of regulars who had the attendant problems of logistics on a hostile front. That would not be the case of US federals fighting on their home soil. So your comparison is not relevant. Colorful arguments do not trump rational ones.
it is relevant. that is how every war has been fought throughout history. even now in iraq, that is how it is fought. we don't generally use their weaponry once we capture it, because generally ours is better, but it does happen. the reverse, on the other hand, goes on constantly. every time insurgents capture an american vehicle, they collect the comm equipment, the weapons, the ammo, even the freaking MREs.

you think that this would not be the case, simply because whatever units loyal to the dictatorship would be fighting closer to home?

feel free to find historical examples to back that up. in the mean time, look to tin's post directly above yours. there is no way that our government could pull off a domestic occupation without going bankrupt. look what the iraqi war has done; that wasn't anywhere near this home soil advantage that you are talking about.

if a few thousand american deaths over a few years in a far-off country that most people would otherwise be ignorant of have been demoralizing for the country's tax payers, imagine when it becomes a civil with many more thousands dying on both sides.

there is no way that the government could hope to win a war like that. a dictator's only hope here would be to quietly, discreetly take the country over the period of generations.

ironic, isn't it? 'cause that is exactly what both political parties have been trying to accomplish for generations now, though they pretend that this kind of control, because of lofty and noble intentions for social good, is anything but tyranny.
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