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Old 05-10-2009, 08:40 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,687,173 times
Reputation: 35889

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark6052 View Post
you really think that the 2nd or the constitution is for ILLEGALS? typical "progressive" thinking, really messed up. its one thing to treat an illegal with dignity and fairness. but that does not include gun rights. and when I say fairness, I means ship all the illegal, undocumented, kids an all out of my country. at gun point. held by an american citizen using HIS constitutional GOD given right to bear arms against them. Man Im glad I dont live in France.
You gun nuts keep waving the Bill of Rights in our faces, so wave this. Every person in the USA is presumed innocent until proven guilty. An alien is not an illegal alien until, with full due process, he is proven beyond reasonable doubt to be illegal. Until then, his second amendment rights shall not be infringed.

Any more questions about the Bill of Rights?

The problem I have with gun nuts is that they think they can use the 2nd Amendment to forcibly deny other people, at gunpoint, their 5th, 6th and 7th Amendment rights. That sounds a little bit hypocritical to me.

 
Old 05-10-2009, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,687,173 times
Reputation: 35889
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark6052 View Post
you really think that the 2nd or the constitution is for ILLEGALS? typical "progressive" thinking, really messed up. its one thing to treat an illegal with dignity and fairness. but that does not include gun rights. and when I say fairness, I means ship all the illegal, undocumented, kids an all out of my country. at gun point. held by an american citizen using HIS constitutional GOD given right to bear arms against them. Man Im glad I dont live in France.
You gun nuts keep waving the Bill of Rights in our faces, so wave this. Every person in the USA is presumed innocent until proven guilty. An alien is not an illegal alien until, with full due process, he is proven beyond reasonable doubt to be illegal. Until then, his second amendment rights shall not be infringed. Nor shall any of his other Constitutional rights.

Any more questions about the Bill of Rights?

The thing that bothers me about gun nuts is that they think the 2nd Amendment gives them the right to use force of arms to deny other people their 5th, 6th and 7th Amendment rights.
 
Old 05-10-2009, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Nebraska
4,222 posts, read 7,005,270 times
Reputation: 6603
This column was in our local paper today (Lincoln Journal Star) in Nebraska. The writer is one of a series of guest columnists that are printed in the Sunday Editions of the LJS. This man has experienced where "gun control" leads.
************************************************** *************
Local view: Beware of promises of change

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By JUAN ALONSO

Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 12:11:13 am CDT
Fifty years ago in Cuba, a young leader eloquently and passionately spoke and fought against the old system of government.

The majority of the press fell in love with him without questioning who his friends were and what he really believed in.

When he promised he would help the poor and provide free health care and education to all, everyone cheered and followed him. When he promised to bring justice and equality to all and that there would not be class differences, everyone responded “Praise the Lord.”
And when the young and charismatic leader promised to bring change, to make the people free from exploitation and economic injustices and abuses, everybody yelled “Viva Fidel.”

But nobody asked him about the change, so after he grabbed power, the people’s guns they had used to defeat the government previously in power were taken away from them.

He told the people that they did not need guns now, that they were free from government abuses. So the people turned the guns in and never again had the opportunity to change the change. He admitted that he and his government people were socialists (Marxist, Leninist and communists).

By the time everyone was equal, they were equally poor, hungry and oppressed. By the time people received his promised free education, it was worth nothing because they could not use it.

By the time the press noticed what he was all about, it was too late because they were then working for him. By the time his promise of change was over, more than 1 million people had taken to boats, rafts and inner tubes to get away from his change. They still do.

Fifty years ago when he arrived to power, I was a professor in business and finance management and head of a school, which he closed and made a “communist educational.” Four months after he took over power in the land were I was born, the repressive members of his government were looking for me and grabbed my business and personal possessions.

I escaped in the bottom of a cargo boat for Spain, leaving my pregnant wife, family and friends behind. I did not know if I would see them again. I entered this great country in July 1962 and became a citizen in 1967, worked hard and had a good and successful life.

My wife, I and our two American-born children have lived in Nebraska since 1965. We have almost forgotten the horror of those years in our native country.

Fifty years later, in 2009, we find ourselves wondering if we are living under another promise of change. May the good Lord help us not to be.

Juan F. Alonso is a Lincoln resident.
************************************************** ********************

GL2
 
Old 05-10-2009, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,687,173 times
Reputation: 35889
Is there anything on-topic in that post somewhere?

Why are Americans so ignorant about the rest of the world? Do you know what happens when there is a revolution? One faction takes the government away from the other one, using force of arms. But there is always a residual counter-revolutionary movement left behind, which is highly dangerous to the government in power. So they disarm everyone who might be a counter-revolutionary. That is called "taking their guns away". That's how things work in the real world. It's not pretty, but that's how things are done.

You haven't had a revolution in your country yet. Wait till you see what happens when you do.

Sometimes it is useful to go back and see what the OP is on the thread. This one is about an America (not a Cuba) that has voluntarily chosen to live in a society without guns. Remember?

Last edited by jtur88; 05-10-2009 at 09:45 AM..
 
Old 05-10-2009, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,078,125 times
Reputation: 3717
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post

Re: My inquiry as to jtur88's interest in a gun-free USA, the idea of that, which, near as I can read and comprehend, is the OP:

Of course not. That wasn't the OP question, and I never said anything that would imply that.

In fact I am a member of the NRA (member number xxxxx7974) and I am a strong advocate of the Second Amendment for its stated purpose.
Appreciated. As I said, you're likely a lovely fellow. I'm just asking for clarification. Since we can't see each others faces, nor read each others' body language, it's up to our words to make our points.

I'm always concerned about folks who have some simplistic world-view about any single process, be it total gun confiscation, no taxes, (or the equally screwy alternative; high taxes), bio-fuels, and on and on.

So, I apologize for my inquisitiveness & concern.
 
Old 05-10-2009, 10:30 AM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,506,936 times
Reputation: 47457
england and australia got a gun ban. crime went way up.
support state militia and NRA there is guna be a federal gun grab very soon.
you wont believe what happens next.
32% of homocides are non gun related. a gun is 3 times more prone to be used for
defense than aggression.
 
Old 05-10-2009, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Monroe, Louisiana
887 posts, read 2,615,851 times
Reputation: 529
I didn't read most of this thread but here are my thoughts anyway..

If you took away everyone's guns, then the people who need them to hunt/defend/hobby with will not have them. The criminal element would have all the guns and may have better guns than the police do. Its impossible to do a fair gun ban.

Also, if all guns were somehow gone (God forbid) then there will be other ways of killing people. The gun doesn't kill anyone, its just a method.
 
Old 05-10-2009, 10:55 AM
 
Location: The Shires
2,257 posts, read 1,726,310 times
Reputation: 1050
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
england and australia got a gun ban. crime went way up.
support state militia and NRA there is guna be a federal gun grab very soon.
you wont believe what happens next.
32% of homocides are non gun related. a gun is 3 times more prone to be used for
defense than aggression.
I don't know about Australia's case, but crime in the UK didn't go up because of the gun ban -- that's a myth. Also (FYI), it is still possible to own a shotgun over there.

Crime in the UK has gone up because of the gradual breakdown of their society that has been going on for decades. It's a socioeconomic problem, rather than a result in the ban on handguns. The UK has also had to absorb a large number of immigrants (both legal and illegal) and the legal system over there simply isn't tough enough, when it comes to tackling crime (particularly lower level street crime).

Besides, even before the ban on handguns, few British people chose to be armed anyway. They have never had the gun culture so prevalent here and many consider themselves free (in a different way to your interpretation of freedom) from not having to live in a society where everyone is armed and guns are commonplace.

Just my .02c worth, as I've lived in both countries
 
Old 05-10-2009, 11:00 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,532,141 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by LSU Tiger Z71
Quote:
Also, if all guns were somehow gone (God forbid) then there will be other ways of killing people. The gun doesn't kill anyone, its just a method.
True, but 1 gun nut with a gun can slaughter a whole crowd in a matter of seconds (provided he has enough ammo and a machine gun), which will be impossible if he was only armed with a knife.
If he was only armed with a knife he probably would be easy to overtake by a crowd of people.
 
Old 05-10-2009, 11:02 AM
 
Location: The Shires
2,257 posts, read 1,726,310 times
Reputation: 1050
Quote:
Originally Posted by LSU Tiger Z71 View Post
I didn't read most of this thread but here are my thoughts anyway..

If you took away everyone's guns, then the people who need them to hunt/defend/hobby with will not have them. The criminal element would have all the guns and may have better guns than the police do. Its impossible to do a fair gun ban.

Also, if all guns were somehow gone (God forbid) then there will be other ways of killing people. The gun doesn't kill anyone, its just a method.
...that's why (at least for now), no form of gun ban would work in the US. The criminals would never surrender their guns.

Like I said, I respect the gun laws here as they are probably right for the United States, but what I do object to is the fact that many pro-gun Americans tend to bash and criticize other nations that don't have the same lax gun laws, for whatever reason.
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