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Old 05-24-2009, 05:08 PM
 
Location: On the Ohio River in Western, KY
3,388 posts, read 5,559,910 times
Reputation: 3336

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
Odd thing, as a comparison, I remember being taught about the Minutemen and the Militia in school. The tradition of the American Rifleman and the Pennsylvania Long Rifle was talked about much as well in the context of how miserable the latter two made the British forces. Firearms are now only talked about in classrooms as evil and insidious devices used by criminals to wreak havoc and kill innocents. Traditional American firearms history is completely ignored or revised to suit. There is a movement afoot to turn the history of firearms in our nation into a horrid thing that needs to be forgotten and demonized. Gone are the images of Daniel Boone carrying his Pennsylvania Rifle into the New Lands and of the armed citizen defending their homes and families from oppression and danger. The latter have been replaced with images of evil people spraying mass quantities of ammunition into crowds of innocent people. Funny, in the bygone days I speak of, when the ownership and use of firearms was taught in a positive light, we did not see these mass shootings and horrible murders happening on near the scale we see now. Kids in those days looked to images of Davey Crocket, Jeramiah Johnson, many characters portrayed by John Wayne and such as role models. Hmmm, Action stars have 'evolved' a bit ....have they not? Something to think about. Have we really'progressed'? If what I am seeing is progress, I'd like to take a few steps back.
Well said! Sorry, but it says I have to give more reps around before I give it to you again, but all your posts about this topic are spot on so far, so REPS anyway, lol!

 
Old 05-25-2009, 08:06 AM
 
Location: MS
4,003 posts, read 3,874,220 times
Reputation: 1386
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I didn't say an illegal alien---that is your blanket assumption that all aliens are illegal except your Canadan friend.
Putting words into my mouth. I work with a LOT of Indian guys so I do know the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
But even an undocumented alien can easily prove residence in any state, and buy all the guns he wants.
How? Is this one of those states that allows anyone to get a driver's license? I know it took Tennessee a while to crack down on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
An "illegal alien", by the way, according to the guarantees of the constitution that you so quickly hide behind the skirts of, is a person that has been adjudged to be illegal after full due process. Until then, he has the same 2nd Amendment guarantees that you have, because he is under the jurisdiction of a country that is prohibited from infringing that right. State laws may vary.
Section 12, question K (http://www.atf.gov/forms/4473/ - broken link) - Are you an alien illegally in the United States? If the answer is yes then no gun. If the answer is no and later it is found out that he lied, prison. I have other suggestions on what to do with him but that is for an immigration debate.

-Robert
 
Old 05-27-2009, 05:07 AM
 
9,326 posts, read 19,022,426 times
Reputation: 4398
Quote:
Originally Posted by rarch View Post
Would a gun free USA be possible for the USA or just a ideal of pacifists, and religous types or would this mark the US becoming a moral and decent society if this were to occur
It will be as possible as a gun free Australia.
 
Old 05-27-2009, 06:13 AM
 
Location: SWE
887 posts, read 1,338,372 times
Reputation: 796
Hey, in Russia and North Korea it's damn near impossible for a citizen to own any kind of a gun legally. So instead of trying to ruin the US with gun bans, why not just move to those countries for a while and give them a try? They're gun-free, right?
 
Old 05-27-2009, 07:57 AM
 
Location: In a house
5,230 posts, read 7,336,664 times
Reputation: 2559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic_Vega View Post
Hey, in Russia and North Korea it's damn near impossible for a citizen to own any kind of a gun legally. So instead of trying to ruin the US with gun bans, why not just move to those countries for a while and give them a try? They're gun-free, right?

Your missing the point. Its not about people freely doing as they please, such as moving to a place more to their liking. Its about preventing others from enjoying their freedoms. If there were no guns they would find another thing to rally against. Its a control thing.
Thats why its often pointless to point out the obvious, results dont matter, only control.
 
Old 05-27-2009, 04:27 PM
 
Location: vagabond
2,631 posts, read 4,840,713 times
Reputation: 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Knocker View Post
Your missing the point. Its not about people freely doing as they please, such as moving to a place more to their liking. Its about preventing others from enjoying their freedoms. If there were no guns they would find another thing to rally against. Its a control thing.
Thats why its often pointless to point out the obvious, results dont matter, only control.
i'm not sure that vic missed the point; it sounded like sarcasm to me. but yes, if they moved to russia, they would begin trying to safety pin everything there too.

they'd have to find some other way of combating firearms though, since they're already restricted. who knows, maybe they'd actually have to go after the ones that are causing the problems–like the criminals for a change....
 
Old 05-28-2009, 02:50 AM
 
129 posts, read 508,720 times
Reputation: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Knocker View Post
Your missing the point. Its not about people freely doing as they please, such as moving to a place more to their liking. Its about preventing others from enjoying their freedoms. If there were no guns they would find another thing to rally against. Its a control thing.
Thats why its often pointless to point out the obvious, results dont matter, only control.
No one controls me as long as I obey government law, and not being able to own a gun makes it a safer society. Especially if the rule is applied to everyone in that society except the police.

I live in a country where mainly only the police own guns who protect the peaceful people from the occasional bad person, and virtually none of the citizens own guns and people are still free.

You say its a freedom for you -- a freedom to own a gun - guns do nothing but make it easier to control and kill things so what your saying is you want the freedom to be able to control others and kill things . Which is hardly a freedom more one of the rights of a would be tyrant - for who would you control with your gun ?
 
Old 05-28-2009, 05:49 AM
 
Location: Minnysoda
8,053 posts, read 8,116,123 times
Reputation: 4767
Quote:
Originally Posted by rarch View Post
No one controls me as long as I obey government law, and not being able to own a gun makes it a safer society. Especially if the rule is applied to everyone in that society except the police.

I live in a country where mainly only the police own guns who protect the peaceful people from the occasional bad person, and virtually none of the citizens own guns and people are still free.

You say its a freedom for you -- a freedom to own a gun - guns do nothing but make it easier to control and kill things so what your saying is you want the freedom to be able to control others and kill things . Which is hardly a freedom more one of the rights of a would be tyrant - for who would you control with your gun ?
So what if you don't like what your Government says? Say your perceived right to Marry who you want is denied and you took to the streets in protest until the armed police started rounded you up? Who you going to call the US backed United Nations? Those guns in the hands of the police have made it easier to control YOU!


Who am I going to control with my gun? The same people the Founders of this Nation wanted us to control... Tyrants........
 
Old 05-28-2009, 06:45 AM
 
Location: In a house
5,230 posts, read 7,336,664 times
Reputation: 2559
Quote:
Originally Posted by rarch View Post
No one controls me as long as I obey government law, and not being able to own a gun makes it a safer society. Especially if the rule is applied to everyone in that society except the police.
Where do your police come from? Ours are people, citizens & have no rights the rest dont.

Quote:
I live in a country where mainly only the police own guns who protect the peaceful people from the occasional bad person, and virtually none of the citizens own guns and people are still free.
How are they free if they cannot buy tools for protection, hunting or recreation? How do the police protect you from crime? When a woman is raped or a man murdered do they suddenly apear before the crime can be commited?

Quote:
You say its a freedom for you -- a freedom to own a gun - guns do nothing but make it easier to control and kill things so what your saying is you want the freedom to be able to control others and kill things . Which is hardly a freedom more one of the rights of a would be tyrant - for who would you control with your gun ?
Guns do alot besides control others. The only person who will ever need fear me, gun or not, is one bent on doing me harm. I am free to protect my loved ones & myself against harm as I see fit. You arent, to me thats unacceptable.


Why do your police have guns if its so safe? Wouldn't it be better for you to have one. This way maybe you could prevent your becoming a victim. The police dont protect you, they solve crime after it happens, they can not prevent one.

The freedom of owning a gun is the ultimate test of a governments trust in the people. You feel free, but you arent & anybody stronger than you can control you. You are not free because you are not afforded the ability to be free.
You feel free perhaps but in reality you are at the mercy of anybody who chooses to victimize you, be it a criminal or your country.

Last edited by Tin Knocker; 05-28-2009 at 07:04 AM..
 
Old 05-28-2009, 07:41 AM
 
9,912 posts, read 12,206,285 times
Reputation: 7260
I think what has failed to be mentioned is that here in Australia it's really not that hard to get a gun if you're a criminal AND as a law abiding Australian citizen you are still at risk of being shot both by criminals and police AND many people have been since guns were banned.

Painting the utopic picture that we are a non violent society, living in peace and harmony is not really truthful.

Whilst I don't subscribe to the idea that your average citizen needs automatic weaponry or rocket launchers and the like, I'm still struggling to understand why the government here thought that removing semi automatic weapons was any kind of solution to the issue that proved to be the catalyst for the law change, and that is the abysmal state of the mental health system in this country. PRIOR to Martin Bryant losing his marbles there were many responsible and law abiding gun owners in this country AND since the buy back we're all well aware that the only people that seem to have guns now are the very people you'd not want to have them. Violent crime hasn't gone down here at all and there are still nutters out on the streets. Innocent people are still being killed, instead they're being hacked to death with machetes or gunned down by criminals with illegal guns. I must say we've never really had hand guns here though.
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