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Old 06-13-2009, 10:31 AM
 
Location: Canada
5,478 posts, read 6,191,595 times
Reputation: 7863

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[
Quote:
Our government is ACTIVELY, and has been for the last, at least 20 years been trying to find some way to erode our gun rights, and slip in ways to take our guns back. It is a fight every step of the way not to give them any ground, and they are making headway unfortunately. Little by little they are eroding our rights.
[/quote]

OKay, and first of all understand that since I'm not American, I don't have a dog in this hunt except to correct information when it pertains to my own country, but while your government may be, as you say, eroding your gun rights, that is not the same as taking away all your weapons, period, is it? What's so bad about controlling some of the guns, especially the automatic types that no one uses to hunt?

Maybe gun control wouldn't work in the US, I really don't know. As I said, I grew up in a rural area and am familiar with guns to hunt, to put down livestock and to target shoot, even though I myself am not interested in any of those things. And for those things guns are never going to be taken away here. The government wants them all registered, so that in the event of stolen legal guns, they are able to track them down. That does not of course help when crimes are committed with illegal guns. On one of the links it said that 50 percent of illegal weapons in Canada come in from the US. Which makes sense since you are the only country we border.

As far as crime is concerned, the other point I would like to make is that I think criminals here are less likely to be wielding guns because they do not expect your average homeowner to have a gun, especially in the cities. Farmers always have guns even if they are not hunters and are not concerned about self-defense.

 
Old 06-13-2009, 10:52 AM
 
6,745 posts, read 8,076,060 times
Reputation: 1846
In what (I think) would be an ideal world. The only people who would be able to own guns would be law enforcement and the military. But I know this is not a reality. I respect the modern interpretation of the second amendment.
 
Old 06-13-2009, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Tyler, TX
15,194 posts, read 17,695,230 times
Reputation: 7980
Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
... our criminals do not have the sorts of guns that you have in the US.
What sorts of guns do your criminals have? What sorts of guns do our criminals have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
And crime is usually criminal on criminals as opposed to random home invasions by strangers.
So is the majority of our gun crime. Home invasions, while quite sensational, are relatively rare here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
... Americans, who have few, if any restrictions.
Where'd you get that idea?

Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
... while your government may be, as you say, eroding your gun rights, that is not the same as taking away all your weapons, period, is it?
You have to understand the history of gun control in this country. Every time new legislation has been passed, it's always been, "We just want this one thing. It's common sense, and we don't want to go any further." And then they do. Again, and again, and again... What do you think the logical conclusion of that pattern is? The gun laws aren't being pushed by the NRA, you know. They're being pushed by the very people that - despite what they say when they're promoting a specific proposed law - make no bones about the fact that they'd like to see guns outlawed altogether.

Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
What's so bad about controlling some of the guns, especially the automatic types that no one uses to hunt?
I have to say, you seem pretty level headed and reasonable, but your perception of the laws and culture surrounding guns in this country is remarkably skewed. I'm not sure where you've been getting your information, but you mentioned in an earlier post that you like facts - you should consider finding a new source for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
The government wants them all registered, so that in the event of stolen legal guns, they are able to track them down.
Are they?


YouTube - Gun Registry vs DNA Databank
 
Old 06-13-2009, 11:00 AM
 
9,964 posts, read 11,821,769 times
Reputation: 13284
Quote:
Originally Posted by rarch View Post
Would a gun free USA be possible for the USA or just a ideal of pacifists, and religous types or would this mark the US becoming a moral and decent society if this were to occur
We could all hope to be like Mexico that has some of the toughest gun laws anywhere in the world on the books. Don't believe me just get caught crossing the border with a single 22 caliber short round in your pocket.

Peaceful and safe Mexico.

The Mexico would be safer without American guns and all guns in Mexico come from America myth.


While 90 percent of the guns traced to the U.S. actually originated in the United States, the percent traced to the U.S. is only about 17 percent of the total number of guns reaching Mexico.

In a remarkable claim, Auturo Sarukhan, the Mexican ambassador to the U.S., said Mexico seizes 2,000 guns a day from the United States -- 730,000 a year. That's a far cry from the official statistic from the Mexican attorney general's office, which says Mexico seized 29,000 weapons in all of 2007 and 2008.

Chris Cox, spokesman for the National Rifle Association, blames the media and anti-gun politicians in the U.S. for misrepresenting where Mexican weapons come from.

"Reporter after politician after news anchor just disregards the truth on this," Cox said. "The numbers are intentionally used to weaken the Second Amendment."

"The predominant source of guns in Mexico is Central and South America. You also have Russian, Chinese and Israeli guns. It's estimated that over 100,000 soldiers deserted the army to work for the drug cartels, and that ignores all the police. How many of them took their weapons with them?"
 
Old 06-13-2009, 11:04 AM
 
Location: In a house
5,230 posts, read 7,323,340 times
Reputation: 2558
Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
[


OKay, and first of all understand that since I'm not American, I don't have a dog in this hunt except to correct information when it pertains to my own country, but while your government may be, as you say, eroding your gun rights, that is not the same as taking away all your weapons, period, is it? What's so bad about controlling some of the guns, especially the automatic types that no one uses to hunt?
The automatic ones you are misled to believe are redilly available have been illegal since the thirties. Hunting really has nothing to do with it & neither does livestock killing. Guns work for that but the reason we have a second amendment isn't so your dad could shoot a cow or so I could shoot a deer.

Quote:
Maybe gun control wouldn't work in the US, I really don't know. As I said, I grew up in a rural area and am familiar with guns to hunt, to put down livestock and to target shoot, even though I myself am not interested in any of those things. And for those things guns are never going to be taken away here.
Really? What if its a handgun you want to target practice or kill cows with?


Quote:
The government wants them all registered, so that in the event of stolen legal guns, they are able to track them down. That does not of course help when crimes are committed with illegal guns.
They want them registered so they can control what you have. When you say "they are able to track them down" are you saying that they track them down & return them? Or do they track them down to prosecute someone for having his property stolen?

Quote:
On one of the links it said that 50 percent of illegal weapons in Canada come in from the US. Which makes sense since you are the only country we border.
I bet over 50% of ALL guns in Canada come from here. We make them after all.

Quote:
As far as crime is concerned, the other point I would like to make is that I think criminals here are less likely to be wielding guns because they do not expect your average homeowner to have a gun, especially in the cities. Farmers always have guns even if they are not hunters and are not concerned about self-defense.
As far as crime is concerened if a criminal thinks its likely that a house is armed they generally go someplace else. Its funny that you think farmers NEED guns any more than anybody else. Theres a hundred ways to humanely put livestock down. What I see in that is its something YOU are familiar with & secure about so YOU dont see harm in it.
Its all relative. While I see no harm in a farmer having a gun, I see no harm in anybody who is not crazy or a criminal in having one, or 50.
The way I see it a poverty stricken man living in a ghetto has a much greater need for a gun than any farmer. Nobody will get harmed if your Pa cant shoot a cow. But people are robbed, raped & murdered every day simply because criminals KNOW that they probably wont be armed or able to effectively fight back.

It matters not wether or not the criminal has a gun. Very often they dont need one to commit there crime. But a gun can make the difference for the victim. Canada I dont know if anyones compiled data like that but here its as many as 2 million times a year that civilians use private guns in self defense & to stop & prevent crime, most of the time no shots are fired & nobody is hurt. The vast majority of those cases are undertaken with a handgun. In otherwords, banning or severly limiting handguns can create as many as 2 million more crimes a year.

People always fret over what they read in the paper & see on TV, as tragic as they are they dont even come close to outweighing the good that is acomplished & the bad that is prevented by private firearms.

Canada & the US do not compare well. I'm sure its a very nice place & I'm glad you like it. But me, I'll stay here & fight to keep gun control from expanding & if I'm real lucky even get to help repeal some of the more rediculous laws already on the books.
 
Old 06-13-2009, 11:48 AM
 
Location: Northglenn, Colorado
3,689 posts, read 9,255,557 times
Reputation: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
[
OKay, and first of all understand that since I'm not American, I don't have a dog in this hunt except to correct information when it pertains to my own country, but while your government may be, as you say, eroding your gun rights, that is not the same as taking away all your weapons, period, is it? What's so bad about controlling some of the guns, especially the automatic types that no one uses to hunt?

Maybe gun control wouldn't work in the US, I really don't know. As I said, I grew up in a rural area and am familiar with guns to hunt, to put down livestock and to target shoot, even though I myself am not interested in any of those things. And for those things guns are never going to be taken away here. The government wants them all registered, so that in the event of stolen legal guns, they are able to track them down. That does not of course help when crimes are committed with illegal guns. On one of the links it said that 50 percent of illegal weapons in Canada come in from the US. Which makes sense since you are the only country we border.

As far as crime is concerned, the other point I would like to make is that I think criminals here are less likely to be wielding guns because they do not expect your average homeowner to have a gun, especially in the cities. Farmers always have guns even if they are not hunters and are not concerned about self-defense.[/quote]

for one, Automatic weapons are already heavily regulated, not illegal but damn near imposable to obtain. Second, what make you think criminals want things fair? If home owners do not have guns, Criminals will still have guns, why? because the home owners do not, it gives criminals the upper hand when committing a crime. Criminals are not noble, not fair.
 
Old 06-13-2009, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Canada
5,478 posts, read 6,191,595 times
Reputation: 7863
Quote:
Automatic weapons are already heavily regulated, not illegal but damn near imposable to obtain. Second, what make you think criminals want things fair? If home owners do not have guns, Criminals will still have guns, why? because the home owners do not, it gives criminals the upper hand when committing a crime. Criminals are not noble, not fair.
[/quote]

Good to know. Is it the semi-automatics that are an issue then?

I didn't say criminals are fair. I'm telling you how it is here. That criminals are less likly here to carry firearms. Now your criminals could be quite different. It's a different society. I said that the whole notion that outlaws will be the only ones carrying guns in the event of gun control is obviously untrue since we have gun control here and Canadians are not dying by the wayside.
 
Old 06-13-2009, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Canada
5,478 posts, read 6,191,595 times
Reputation: 7863
Quote:
Really? What if its a handgun you want to target practice or kill cows with?
Then it would be registered, wouldn't it? But most people wouldn't have hand guns. I am not sure what the law is here on hand guns. However, I have one brother who is in the RCMP. I'll ask him.


Quote:
They want them registered so they can control what you have. When you say "they are able to track them down" are you saying that they track them down & return them? Or do they track them down to prosecute someone for having his property stolen?
I certainly hope they want to control the guns people have. The process of tracking them down would be to catch the criminal who committed the act. After used as evidence ina court, they would be returned to the owner, if they were legally obtained.

Quote:
I bet over 50% of ALL guns in Canada come from here. We make them after all.
No doubt. My point was illegal weapons. What's your point?

Quote:
As far as crime is concerened if a criminal thinks its likely that a house is armed they generally go someplace else. Its funny that you think farmers NEED guns any more than anybody else. Theres a hundred ways to humanely put livestock down.

And a hundred ways to shot a skunk or a rabid fox? You're not a farmer, are you?

Quote:
What I see in that is its something YOU are familiar with & secure about so YOU dont see harm in it.
It isn't relative. Most people don't need guns. HOwever, I really don't care if Americans love their guns and feel differently about it.

Quote:
It matters not wether or not the criminal has a gun. Very often they dont need one to commit there crime. But a gun can make the difference for the victim. Canada I dont know if anyones compiled data like that but here its as many as 2 million times a year that civilians use private guns in self defense & to stop & prevent crime, most of the time no shots are fired & nobody is hurt. The vast majority of those cases are undertaken with a handgun. In otherwords, banning or severly limiting handguns can create as many as 2 million more crimes a year.
Well, not here. If you'd go back and read that site, you'd see that Canada and the US are similar on crime that involves knives but not on guns. Why is that if people defending themselves are so effective against crime?
 
Old 06-13-2009, 06:54 PM
 
Location: In a house
5,230 posts, read 7,323,340 times
Reputation: 2558
Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
Then it would be registered, wouldn't it? But most people wouldn't have hand guns. I am not sure what the law is here on hand guns. However, I have one brother who is in the RCMP. I'll ask him.
I think you'll find handguns very restricted.



Quote:
I certainly hope they want to control the guns people have. The process of tracking them down would be to catch the criminal who committed the act. After used as evidence ina court, they would be returned to the owner, if they were legally obtained.
Ok, so let me get this straight. A farming family has a rifle for predator control ect. The leave this gun in the barn, it gets stolen & used in a crime, because its registered they come & get the farmer in hopes he knows who stole his gun?

Criminals themselves are not going to register a gun so the only people effected will be those who werent going to commit a crime anyway.

I recal reading alot about how astronomical the cost your gun registry got, how hard it is to enforce & how little its helped fight crime.

Quote:
No doubt. My point was illegal weapons. What's your point?
Your point was what about illegal weapons?


Quote:
And a hundred ways to shot a skunk or a rabid fox? You're not a farmer, are you?
Nope, does that matter? Farmers dont need a gun any more than anyone else. I'v had to shoot rabid racoons in my yard. Do you feel its more important that you not get bit by a skunk than it is for a woman to stop a rapist or a man defend his family?
Quote:
It isn't relative. Most people don't need guns. HOwever, I really don't care if Americans love their guns and feel differently about it.
What has need to do with a right? Again, a farmer does not NEED a gun to farm. People raised cattle & farmed for several millenia without guns.
In another post you linked to your country not having a second amendment per se but still having a right to bear arms & a right to self defense due to the old English common law that still applies. It goes on to opine that a right to self defence necessitates a right to the best tools to secure your saftey. In other words a right to self defense is meaningless if that person is prevented from useing what they deem apropriate to defend themselves.

Quote:
Well, not here. If you'd go back and read that site, you'd see that Canada and the US are similar on crime that involves knives but not on guns. Why is that if people defending themselves are so effective against crime?
Of course not there, you guys cannot carry a gun for protection. Alot of defensive uses happen away from home. Women walking home from work, a clerk at a convenience store or a man in his liquor store, a potential mugging victim.

Show me where on that site it mentions or takes into account defensive uses of guns. Sadly we are not defending ourselves very well because most people buy into the idea that to defend yourself is wrong.
It only works or matters if you take advantage of it. But the fact is that, regardless of anything else, a whole lot of crime is prevented by them. There is no question in that regard.

Why our gun crime rate is higher I dont know, but its been consistantly higher than yours & Europes regardless of gun control. When none of us had gun control the US was a wilder place, why should that change because of restrictions on people who arent commiting crimes?
 
Old 06-13-2009, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Stuck in NE GA right now
4,585 posts, read 10,482,984 times
Reputation: 6597
Quote:
Would a gun free USA be possible for the USA
No I don't think it would be possible or practical. I for one am an advocate of registering guns. But, I also want to be able to own guns. I'm an older single woman and live in a rural area. I need a gun like a .38 that I can load with rat shot to run off preditors, we have a real coyote problem where I live and also I walk out on my 10+ acres and cary a gun to protect myself from the very posinous snakes in my area.

I have neighbors who hunt and I have no problem with that as they are very responsible.
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