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Old 06-20-2009, 11:47 AM
 
3,566 posts, read 4,491,960 times
Reputation: 1846

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You know its kind of wierd but I was trying to figure out if the elderly woman in the Pheonix area knew the people involved. 'Cuz that is kind of how it works. Well, the robber in question here was found at the hospital.

Quote:
The robbers, both 19, rounded up three men and a woman who lived there into one room. The victims ranged in age from 20 to 24.
1 robber killed, 1 wounded in home invasion | Arizona local news - Mesa, Scottsdale, Gilbert, Tempe, Chandler | eastvalleytribune.com (http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/140654 - broken link)


Now, that is strange.

 
Old 06-20-2009, 05:47 PM
 
Location: In a house
5,230 posts, read 7,322,321 times
Reputation: 2558
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandamonium View Post
You know its kind of wierd but I was trying to figure out if the elderly woman in the Pheonix area knew the people involved. 'Cuz that is kind of how it works. Well, the robber in question here was found at the hospital.



1 robber killed, 1 wounded in home invasion | Arizona local news - Mesa, Scottsdale, Gilbert, Tempe, Chandler | eastvalleytribune.com (http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/140654 - broken link)


Now, that is strange.

Strange or not enough crimes are averted by normal people having guns to dismiss the emotional & illogical arguments against private firearm ownership.
 
Old 06-20-2009, 05:59 PM
 
3,566 posts, read 4,491,960 times
Reputation: 1846
Your point is? What you really meant to say was...?
 
Old 06-21-2009, 04:59 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,520,600 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by Robert_J
Quote:
Actually, I don't think the odds are even if both the attacker and the attackee are armed. Responsible guns owners are going to have training to get a carry permit and most will continue to practice. Your average thug can't even hold a gun properly. Watch the security camera videos on Youtube. They hold it sideways like in the movies.
So you're sayin that criminals can only be dumb people?
If you wanna strike fear in people in order for them to realise that they need a gun for their own personal protection, you sure are being counterproductive by making criminals into dumb morons.

Then again, if people in the US only obey the law because people carry guns, I'd say that the American nation truly is in a sad state.


Originally Posted by Tin Knocker
Quote:
No, thats not what you said, its just what your saying now because what you said before was proven erroneous.
LoL, just because you never picked it up before doesn't mean that I haven't been sayin' it all along.
Your problem is that 9 out of 10 times you are not truly hearing me.
Or maybe you simply just don't understand what I'm sayin'?

Quote:
Funny how I get edited for name calling but you go on with it constantly & nobody says a word.
That is because I use the word fetishist accurately, while you only see it as an insult.
The same way a liar feels insulted every time I call him a liar because I catch him telling a lie.
Or like an addict who finds it slander every time he is called a junkie.

Quote:
If their disorder causes them to commit crimes they are criminals & belong in prison.
This is exactly the reason why America has the largest prison population of the world; America puts too much emphasis on punishment instead of rehabilitation (and, if possible, curing a disorder).

And the reason why people end up in jail in America can also be very ridiculous, if I’m not mistaken women can now end up in jail because they are wearing thongs and low cut jeans (read: dress sexXxy and inappropriate)?

BTW a harsher punishment doesn't really prevent crime, you already have the harshest prison sentence: the death sentence, yet it doesn't work as a deterrent.


Originally Posted by Greatday
Quote:
While it IS unfortunate, it is a FACT that personal attacks happen - and happen all to often.
Which does not require the use of deadly force.
But I guess gun fetishists ignore this minor detail cauz they don't wanna carry their guns for nothin'.
If ya don't use them guns you might as well loose them, right?
Even the police can’t just draw their guns every time they’re personally attacked, their use of firearms has to be justified (and not a disproportionate reflex).
 
Old 06-21-2009, 08:28 AM
 
Location: MS
3,949 posts, read 3,856,381 times
Reputation: 1370
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by Robert_J]So you're sayin that criminals can only be dumb people?
I didn't say that. I said the "average" criminal isn't a brain surgeon. If they had any smarts they wouldn't be in the crime game. If they had any smarts they could calculate the risks involved in being a criminal. Yes, there are some criminals that are well prepared. They go for the larger scores most of the time. But I wouldn't classify them as smart though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by Robert_J]If you wanna strike fear in people in order for them to realise that they need a gun for their own personal protection, you sure are being counterproductive by making criminals into dumb morons.
I'm not trying to stike fear into anyone. These people may not be smart but they are evil. These people don't fathom the consequences of their actions. Whether it is the lasting fear of their victim or what happens when they are caught. They aren't thinking past the current moment. If more of them are shot during the commision of a crime then it will start to sink in that they need to look for a more honest line of work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by Robert_J]Then again, if people in the US only obey the law because people carry guns, I'd say that the American nation truly is in a sad state.
We are a MASSIVE nation and the violent criminal element makes up a very, very small percentage of the population. Most of the US is made up of people going about their daily lives being productive and leading a positive life. What you see on the TV news or read in the paper is not an accurate representation of life in America. Most people obey the law because it is the right thing to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
This is exactly the reason why America has the largest prison population of the world; America puts too much emphasis on punishment instead of rehabilitation (and, if possible, curing a disorder....BTW a harsher punishment doesn't really prevent crime, you already have the harshest prison sentence: the death sentence, yet it doesn't work as a deterrent.
I don't have a good answer for this. Some people can't be rehabilitated and should be put down. I think most want to do better but don't know how so upon release they go back to their old ways. I do think that this is outside of the current debate and should be its own discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
And the reason why people end up in jail in America can also be very ridiculous, if Iím not mistaken women can now end up in jail because they are wearing thongs and low cut jeans (read: dress sexXxy and inappropriate)?
Not true. Please see my statement above that the media does not give an accurate representation of real life here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
But I guess gun fetishists ignore this minor detail cauz they don't wanna carry their guns for nothin'.
If ya don't use them guns you might as well loose them, right?
Even the police canít just draw their guns every time theyíre personally attacked, their use of firearms has to be justified (and not a disproportionate reflex).
I go back to my insurance analogy. We really don't want to use them and go out of our way to put ourselves in those situations. But if the need arises I want to be prepared. Police have many other options at their disposal. I'd love to carry around a baton, taser and a backup gun in addition to my primary weapon but that just isn't practical. As for pulling my gun, there is a series of escalations that has to happen. At each level, I am trying to difuse the situation or escape. Sometime though you are met with the worst possible scenario and I am prepared to take appropriate action.

For example, if my home alarm sounded right now, I know that the perimeter of my house has been breached. I am in my office where the majority of my guns are kept. I would grab a shotgun and go downstairs to check things out. I see a person that should not be in my house standing in the front doorway and I draw down. In that split second we are both making decisions. He turns and runs, I check the rest of the house and call 911. On the other hand if he reaches into his pocket he has made the worst decision of his life. The law is on my side whether he pulls out a gun, knife or a breath mint. By entering my house without permission I assume that he is there to do me harm. The law is also on my side in that assumption. Would I go and brag about wasting a thug? Absolutely not. I'd love it if I didn't have to prepare for the worst. When that happens I'll drop my health insurance and eat fried chicken for every meal. That's not going to happen so I'll keep all of my insurance up to date and also keep my preventative measures in place.

-Robert
 
Old 06-21-2009, 08:58 AM
 
21,395 posts, read 10,660,583 times
Reputation: 8688
Quote:
So you're sayin that criminals can only be dumb people?
Usually, why they are criminals. Only a brain dead idiot turns into a criminal.
 
Old 06-21-2009, 01:30 PM
 
Location: Texas
42,223 posts, read 49,783,147 times
Reputation: 66983
??

Except for my cop friends, most gun owners I know don't carry their guns around in public.

And the ones who are allowed to go through training and have actually been documented to have stopped crimes, etc.

Why would you assume that the only reason to own a gun is self-defense or to walk around with one? We enjoy target shooting. Sure, the guns are readily there if someone breaks into our house, but I don't own a gun so I can shoot a person.
 
Old 06-21-2009, 03:51 PM
 
Location: On a Slow-Sinking Granite Rock Up North
3,637 posts, read 5,264,507 times
Reputation: 2650
Quote:
Originally Posted by rarch View Post
Would a gun free USA be possible for the USA or just a ideal of pacifists, and religous types or would this mark the US becoming a moral and decent society if this were to occur

Human nature being what it is and has been since the dawn of time, I would think it would take a whole lot more than simply banning firearms to mark the US becoming a moral and decent society.

There are plenty of immoral axe murders too, but yet we don't regulate axes. Regulate knives? Regulate fists? Regulate anything that causes "blunt force trauma?"

IMHO, the distinction between criminals and law-abiding citizenry is what seems to become mired in what constitutes gun "control."

It's the sensationalized cases that get press - not the ones where people use firearms for sport, target practice, self-defense etc...IMHO, there are far more people who own guns responsibly than there are those who use them for a more sinister purpose.
 
Old 06-21-2009, 05:40 PM
 
Location: In a house
5,230 posts, read 7,322,321 times
Reputation: 2558
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandamonium View Post
Your point is? What you really meant to say was...?

I think my point was clear. But I'll try again.
Its abundantly clear, that many many law abiding citizens effectively prevent & stop violent crime with privately owned firearms. Given that fact, unless the intent is to allow those people to be robbed, raped or killed, no further gun control should be taken seriously.

What would have been the outcome of the linked article if nobody had a gun?

What would be the outcome in countless other violent crimes if the victims did have a gun?
 
Old 06-21-2009, 05:56 PM
 
Location: In a house
5,230 posts, read 7,322,321 times
Reputation: 2558
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post


Originally Posted by Tin Knocker LoL, just because you never picked it up before doesn't mean that I haven't been sayin' it all along.
Your problem is that 9 out of 10 times you are not truly hearing me.
Or maybe you simply just don't understand what I'm sayin'?
Its not easy to understand what your saying for many reasons, inconsistency is only one.

Quote:
That is because I use the word fetishist accurately, while you only see it as an insult.
The same way a liar feels insulted every time I call him a liar because I catch him telling a lie.
Or like an addict who finds it slander every time he is called a junkie.
Yeah ok. I see it as an insult because you intend it as an insult. Fetishist implies a perverted affection for something.
All anyone here is arguing for is a basic civil right.

Quote:
This is exactly the reason why America has the largest prison population of the world; America puts too much emphasis on punishment instead of rehabilitation (and, if possible, curing a disorder).
I agree, the way to cure homicidal tendencies is execution. Cuts back on prison population & recidivism.

Quote:
And the reason why people end up in jail in America can also be very ridiculous, if I’m not mistaken women can now end up in jail because they are wearing thongs and low cut jeans (read: dress sexXxy and inappropriate)?
Where did you get that bit of misinformation from Trickster?
You are very much mistaken,,,, again, its a common thing with you.

Quote:
BTW a harsher punishment doesn't really prevent crime, you already have the harshest prison sentence: the death sentence, yet it doesn't work as a deterrent.
Because its not used enough. Why fear execution when you will grow old & die before its carried out? If a gang member saw his buddy kill someone today & the next day saw him swinging from a tree it would have a better effect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatdayWhich does not require the use of deadly force.
But I guess gun fetishists ignore this minor detail cauz they don't wanna carry their guns for nothin'.
If ya don't use them guns you might as well loose them, right?
Even the police can’t just draw their guns every time they’re personally attacked, their use of firearms has to be justified (and not a disproportionate reflex).
You know nothing, or very little about us yet you lecture on what our police can do?

The fact is that nobody but the victim can really say wether or not deadly force is needed. Theres a link on the previous page you conveniently ignore to a case where deadly force was the only way out. Its not a use it or lose it thing. Its common sense steps to prevent being rendered irrelevant by a criminal. You may wish to let your loved ones die if some criminal wants them to. Not everybody suffers from such cowardice.
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