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Old 07-08-2009, 08:53 AM
 
Location: In a house
5,230 posts, read 7,324,732 times
Reputation: 2558

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Quote:
Originally Posted by yodi View Post
I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue about.

The militia doesn't need to be called into action by congress since by the United States' own definition militia simply means: any male between the ages of 17 and 45 or any woman in the National Guard. It doesn't mean U.S. army or any other army for that matter.

I wasn't argueing with you really. Just pointing out the flaws in the current situation. If the US definition of militia is really everyone between 17 & 45 then anyone between those ages not equipped with a modern military type firearm is violating the law. Congress is suposed to be able to call up & organize this citizen militia as needed, if you are not armed you are in violation because you cannot serve as required. Showing up with a hunting rifle is not acceptable, I believe the wording was an arm suitable for military service. Today thats an M16, AK47, M4, perhaps even a M14 or Garand but no way a bolt or lever action.
In todays US the National Guard is no different than any other Federal military branch. They do not work for the states as they once did & are regularly deployed in forien theatres. As such they are unavailable to preserve peace if a state needs them & since they are a Federal force they are subject to Federal orders over a states orders. In other words if the Fed does something a state doesn't want or like & a state doesn't want to cooperate there is nothing they can do militarilly.


Quote:
The original intent of the second amendment is just as important today as it was when it was written. The right to bear arms is central to our democracy and freedom. I am against gun control.
Agreed.

 
Old 07-08-2009, 09:05 AM
 
Location: In a house
5,230 posts, read 7,324,732 times
Reputation: 2558
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
The founding fathers were hardly God-fearing people. In fact, this is what John Adams said:"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"
("The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." They just used it as a front. Furthermore, they were hypocrits. They talked about freedom and yet owned slaves. How much more hypocritical can you get? "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"). Those were all the words of John Adams.
Thomas Jefferson didn't even believe in Christianity and was a critic of it.

The founding fathers were also hypocrits. They say they love freedom and yet they owned slaves. How much more hyporcritical can you get. The only thing I agree with is the right to own a gun. Other than that, the USA was never a moral nation. This nation did some insidious things, not limited too, but including genocide to the original people living there. Trust me, this nation hasn't lived up to its creed. This was only a moral and decent nation to the people who would benefit from it. If you weren't white and male, it wasn't a moral and decent nation for you to live in. Call me out on it all you want but I am standing by what I say.
You oversimplify a bit.

From the start most founders, even those holding slaves, realized the hypocrisy involved. But it was acknowledged that if we were to have a Union at all some things would have to be overlooked initially. It takes no rocket scientist to look at the civil war & realize that had the issue been pushed in the 1770's we never would have had a nation at all.

Religion is a personal thing & I imagine they knew that & thats why they created a country with a seperation of church & state.

What we did to the indigenous folks is sad but nothing even noteworthy in the grand scheme. Its how almost every nation currently on Earth got what it has. You take what you need & fight those in the way.

Anyway those hypocritical folks you choose to berate set up a system that allowed for the freeing of slavery, allowed for women to become equals & allowed for racial segregation & discrimination to be outlawed.

It would have been real eazy to put in constitutional provisions providing for the perpetual slavery of black people or they could have written in provisions declaring that women be forever less influential than men.
They knew right from wrong, but they also lived in the times they lived in.
The things you bring up would have stood in the way of the creation of the number one best country on Earth today.
 
Old 07-08-2009, 05:11 PM
 
805 posts, read 1,743,902 times
Reputation: 381
Quote:
Trust me, this nation hasn't lived up to its creed. This was only a moral and decent nation to the people who would benefit from it. If you weren't white and male, it wasn't a moral and decent nation for you to live in. Call me out on it all you want but I am standing by what I say.
Got a better place in mind?
 
Old 07-08-2009, 05:43 PM
 
44,606 posts, read 43,151,983 times
Reputation: 14409
Quote:
Originally Posted by cp1969 View Post
Got a better place in mind?
You know I am telling the truth. That is the only reason you made that comment. Sure it was the land of the free, home of the brave, if you weren't a slave. Did you know slaves could own guns? Few people would say such a thing. Sure, a person had the right to bear arms, but only certain persons had the right. I believe a person should be able to own a gun and protect themselves. With that in mind, many state that gun rights have been curtailed. What about back in the old days when slaves were not allowed to have guns? Do you know why that is? Slave owners wanted to exert their power over slaves and make money off of people doing labor for free, and not voluntarily either. And the founding fathers and other people talked about freedom. That sounds hypocritical to me. I don't care about the times. Is it right to claim freedom for all and then deny certain persons their freedom based on their race? Think about that.
 
Old 07-09-2009, 05:31 PM
 
805 posts, read 1,743,902 times
Reputation: 381
OK, I've thought about it.

Now, I ask again: Can you point to a better place, right now?
 
Old 07-09-2009, 05:37 PM
 
Location: The Milky Way Galaxy
2,256 posts, read 5,907,677 times
Reputation: 1505
Hmm...to answer the original question of the OP I would believe we'd be worse off. We know everyone who has their guns illegally are of course going to keep their guns and the law abiding citizens who have them would be the only ones to turn them in. This would in turn embolden the people that have them to easily be able to rob any citizen know there's no way they'd be able to defend themselves with a force equal to a gun.
 
Old 07-10-2009, 04:34 AM
 
Location: In a house
5,230 posts, read 7,324,732 times
Reputation: 2558
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
You know I am telling the truth. That is the only reason you made that comment. Sure it was the land of the free, home of the brave, if you weren't a slave. Did you know slaves could own guns? Few people would say such a thing. Sure, a person had the right to bear arms, but only certain persons had the right. I believe a person should be able to own a gun and protect themselves. With that in mind, many state that gun rights have been curtailed. What about back in the old days when slaves were not allowed to have guns? Do you know why that is? Slave owners wanted to exert their power over slaves and make money off of people doing labor for free, and not voluntarily either. And the founding fathers and other people talked about freedom. That sounds hypocritical to me. I don't care about the times. Is it right to claim freedom for all and then deny certain persons their freedom based on their race? Think about that.
I already responded to this stuff. You need to read up on our history.

We never have been perfect, but the fact is that from almost day one we have made progressive steps towards equal rights. In the past that always meant granting equality by expanding the rights of previously subjugated races, sex or classes of people. The current trend & topic at hand is to go the other way & create equality by taking away liberties from everybody because some people dont excercise certain rights. In other words theres a part of our population that see's no value in firearms ownership. So in order to create equality some folks seek to make it so nobody can excercise RKBA. That is the problem & what was what 200+ years ago is unimportant. Whats important is that our elected officials & some citizens seem intent on undoing what we have spent 200+ years upgrading.
 
Old 07-10-2009, 09:20 AM
 
Location: NW Nevada
13,340 posts, read 10,916,474 times
Reputation: 12290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Knocker View Post
You oversimplify a bit.

From the start most founders, even those holding slaves, realized the hypocrisy involved. But it was acknowledged that if we were to have a Union at all some things would have to be overlooked initially. It takes no rocket scientist to look at the civil war & realize that had the issue been pushed in the 1770's we never would have had a nation at all.

Religion is a personal thing & I imagine they knew that & thats why they created a country with a seperation of church & state.

What we did to the indigenous folks is sad but nothing even noteworthy in the grand scheme. Its how almost every nation currently on Earth got what it has. You take what you need & fight those in the way.

Anyway those hypocritical folks you choose to berate set up a system that allowed for the freeing of slavery, allowed for women to become equals & allowed for racial segregation & discrimination to be outlawed.

It would have been real eazy to put in constitutional provisions providing for the perpetual slavery of black people or they could have written in provisions declaring that women be forever less influential than men.
They knew right from wrong, but they also lived in the times they lived in.
The things you bring up would have stood in the way of the creation of the number one best country on Earth today.
Specifically commenting on the 'separation of church and state' the original intent of this was wrapped around the idea of tolerance. It allowed for people of different faiths to practice those faiths without falling afoul of a centralized, state sponsored religion. Such as England had. It was in no way intended to mean that the government be devoid of faith. The Founding Fathers recognized that a powerful central church was as capable of trampling peoples rights as a monarchy and removed that from the equation. The Spanish Inquisition, Salem witch trials, the trying and hanging of 'heritics' in England etc, were pretty fresh in their minds, and the free practice of different faiths was important to them, and all the freedoms granted in the Bill of Rights are secured by the Second Amendment. It's pretty simple actually.
 
Old 07-10-2009, 07:08 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,213 posts, read 4,902,620 times
Reputation: 624
Quote:
Originally Posted by rarch View Post
Would a gun free USA be possible for the USA or just a ideal of pacifists, and religous types or would this mark the US becoming a moral and decent society if this were to occur
I beleive the US has more important problems than taking guns away. Take guns from the lawabiding and only criminals will have them.
 
Old 07-10-2009, 07:45 PM
 
16,704 posts, read 18,930,553 times
Reputation: 6804
I will give up guns when the government gives up its guns... then I'll just get a bow and plenty of arrows... if the government thinks I can't have something... guess what, neither should they...
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