U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-18-2009, 07:07 PM
 
3,705 posts, read 3,031,347 times
Reputation: 10030

Advertisements

The thread began with a question of, "idealistic youth", for starters I'd like to point out that there is no such thing as idealistic youth, per se, there are some young and idealistic people, but on the whole, idealism is not the sole domain of youth. Many people have forgotten what it was like to find that their schooling did not provide them with an adequate knowledge of history, being lied to, they responded quite naturally with some investigation on their own. The 60's is the best example of what can happen when lying becomes a national disgrace, from the rangy subject of the Native American holocaust, to the rice paddies of Nam, there was an incredible amount of revision of US history. Kid's today are still being bamboozled in our schools, they walk out at Eighteen thinking they have the necessary knowledge to participate in this society as equals. Little do they know that they will have a lot to learn, and worse, very little time to accomplish any real, meaningful sense of where they are in the long chain of folk's passing through. The original poster's position on things political and moral are an outstanding example of the hubris that has been the persistent companion of supposed airtight theories that are shaped to provide a kind of truth, but never the whole truth. That an arrogance can be present in most absolutist thinking is not news, I'm merely trying to point out the flaw in the system of education and it's attendant consequence. Idealism is not something that equates with naivete, the term has been used to denote someone who expects pie in the sky, seeking the ideal outcome from your endeavors, and the endeavors of those in the collective body, is a desireable trait, and seldom given any due for the positive energy that accompanies that mindset. Capitalism and Socialism are two sides of the same coin, both systems have incorporated some of each others theory in their attempt to create a system of economics that serves the majority of the populace. The trouble is that neither system has been able to advance their cause in such a way that promotes a true benefit to cost ratio that can be sustained. We would be errant in our thinking if we didn't include the fact that in any economic construct, there is a finite number of humans that can be served by economic theory alone, to care for all of our citizens, we must first face the realities that overpopulation brings to bear on any economy. Be it Communism, Socialism, or Capitalism, we can rest assured that none of these ism's will do justice to the entire spectrum of needs we have come to expect from the collective wealth of any nation. Our own current economic debacle certainly provides some insight regarding the flaws of Capitalism, and whether or not our particular Capitalism is of the "pure kind', is hardly worth mentioning. It is Capitalism, it may be a perverted version of the "pure," theoretical, well intentioned type, envisioned by those who were seeking an alternative to the system of serfdom, and worse, but it is, after all, a system that holds Capital above labor, Capital above human rights, and Capital above the needs of basic human dignity. Socialism is, in theory, a more inclusive form of government, but hardly anyone states the obvious when discussing the differences between the two systems, Socialism MUST be of the democratic kind, not the State Socialism that passes for the real thing, same thing for Communism, if all are to be included, then the governing body must be the collective populace not the arbitrary power of the State. In practice, no nation governs it's citizens or it's monetary system according to any pure theory, but idealism is alive and well in America and elsewhere, it needn't be thought of as anything but the pragmatic nature of humans at work.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-19-2009, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
3,196 posts, read 4,718,943 times
Reputation: 976
Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber View Post
The thread began with a question of, "idealistic youth", for starters I'd like to point out that there is no such thing as idealistic youth, per se, there are some young and idealistic people, but on the whole, idealism is not the sole domain of youth. Many people have forgotten what it was like to find that their schooling did not provide them with an adequate knowledge of history, being lied to, they responded quite naturally with some investigation on their own. The 60's is the best example of what can happen when lying becomes a national disgrace, from the rangy subject of the Native American holocaust, to the rice paddies of Nam, there was an incredible amount of revision of US history. Kid's today are still being bamboozled in our schools, they walk out at Eighteen thinking they have the necessary knowledge to participate in this society as equals. Little do they know that they will have a lot to learn, and worse, very little time to accomplish any real, meaningful sense of where they are in the long chain of folk's passing through. The original poster's position on things political and moral are an outstanding example of the hubris that has been the persistent companion of supposed airtight theories that are shaped to provide a kind of truth, but never the whole truth. That an arrogance can be present in most absolutist thinking is not news, I'm merely trying to point out the flaw in the system of education and it's attendant consequence. Idealism is not something that equates with naivete, the term has been used to denote someone who expects pie in the sky, seeking the ideal outcome from your endeavors, and the endeavors of those in the collective body, is a desireable trait, and seldom given any due for the positive energy that accompanies that mindset. Capitalism and Socialism are two sides of the same coin, both systems have incorporated some of each others theory in their attempt to create a system of economics that serves the majority of the populace. The trouble is that neither system has been able to advance their cause in such a way that promotes a true benefit to cost ratio that can be sustained. We would be errant in our thinking if we didn't include the fact that in any economic construct, there is a finite number of humans that can be served by economic theory alone, to care for all of our citizens, we must first face the realities that overpopulation brings to bear on any economy. Be it Communism, Socialism, or Capitalism, we can rest assured that none of these ism's will do justice to the entire spectrum of needs we have come to expect from the collective wealth of any nation. Our own current economic debacle certainly provides some insight regarding the flaws of Capitalism, and whether or not our particular Capitalism is of the "pure kind', is hardly worth mentioning. It is Capitalism, it may be a perverted version of the "pure," theoretical, well intentioned type, envisioned by those who were seeking an alternative to the system of serfdom, and worse, but it is, after all, a system that holds Capital above labor, Capital above human rights, and Capital above the needs of basic human dignity. Socialism is, in theory, a more inclusive form of government, but hardly anyone states the obvious when discussing the differences between the two systems, Socialism MUST be of the democratic kind, not the State Socialism that passes for the real thing, same thing for Communism, if all are to be included, then the governing body must be the collective populace not the arbitrary power of the State. In practice, no nation governs it's citizens or it's monetary system according to any pure theory, but idealism is alive and well in America and elsewhere, it needn't be thought of as anything but the pragmatic nature of humans at work.
Help me out here....I read your post three times...can you put into one or two sentences the jist of what you're trying to say?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-19-2009, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,613,725 times
Reputation: 35875
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcashley View Post
Help me out here....I read your post three times...can you put into one or two sentences the jist of what you're trying to say?

You think that's bad, go and read his block of unpraragraphinated text under "Government workers . . . "
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-19-2009, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Minnysoda
8,022 posts, read 8,090,023 times
Reputation: 4734
Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
'Idealistic youth saving the world". Reminds me of the book Logans Run. Everyone was obligated to die at 21 and thus spare the world from the evils of the old. It was actually a pretty good read for a short novel.
LOL How many old 60's stick it to the man hippys are now wealthy whatevers about to retire? Nothing like money and power to ruin you idealism and get the old FTW attitude
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-19-2009, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
3,196 posts, read 4,718,943 times
Reputation: 976
Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
LOL How many old 60's stick it to the man hippys are now wealthy whatevers about to retire? Nothing like money and power to ruin you idealism and get the old FTW attitude
At least one. (me.) Sorry you're jealous. (not really).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-22-2009, 08:21 AM
 
1,967 posts, read 1,526,796 times
Reputation: 844
I really hope so, this world is circling the drain right now.

Money, power, and greed continue to fuel this crappy society we live in. Makes me wonder if some form of communism would be a better foundation for America. All capitalism does is teach our youth that the more cutthroat and ruthless you are, the more money and power you will get.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-22-2009, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
3,196 posts, read 4,718,943 times
Reputation: 976
Quote:
Originally Posted by k.smith904 View Post
I really hope so, this world is circling the drain right now.

Money, power, and greed continue to fuel this crappy society we live in. Makes me wonder if some form of communism would be a better foundation for America. All capitalism does is teach our youth that the more cutthroat and ruthless you are, the more money and power you will get.
Communism didn't work in Russia, China, Vietnam, North Korea, Cuba....do we really want to make examples out of ourselves?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-22-2009, 10:13 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,613,725 times
Reputation: 35875
Communist China is the virtual owner, economically, of the United States. Communism worked a great deal better in Russia than the mafia that replaced it. Cuba worked well enough that it survived a 50-year economic onslaught by the most powerful economic power in the world which did everything in its power to reduce Cuba to poverty and destitution, and today has a higher literacy rate and life expectancy than the USA. Vietnam is one of the most overpopulated countries in the world, and one of the fastest growing economies in spite of that disadvantage. North Korea is under the control of such a moron that you can't blame communism for its plight, and in any case, is no worse off than capitalist Myanmar.

Considering that the USA has single-mindedly and pathologically, for almost a century, utilized much of the greatest wealth in history to destroy the economy (and people) of every nation that ever even paid lip service to communism, using brutal war in some cases, communist countries haven't really done so badly at all.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-22-2009, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
3,196 posts, read 4,718,943 times
Reputation: 976
I refuse to argue with people who have no comprehension of the impact of centrally plnned economic systems.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-23-2009, 01:05 AM
 
1,779 posts, read 2,038,927 times
Reputation: 616
The United States of America is in ruins. We have somehow veered off the path that our founding fathers have laid for us. It makes it seem like all the blood, sweat, and tears that where shed for this country were all for nothing. We once lived in a nation that believed in peace, that believed that by helping others we well save ourselves. This country was never so focused on Money as it is today. Everyone speaks of freedom, yet they do nothing to ensure this. They sing songs of revenge yet when revenge is sought they fall silent. They speak of economic change yet when change is upon them, they revert to old ways.

What are we supposed to do in a world that is so far from hope, how do we even begin to think of change? Are we all supposed to just pray to our Gods and profits that left us alone so long ago? Are we supposed to just dream of change? Do we hoard property and money making sure we get our cut, even if it means someone else loses there’s? Or do we strip away all rights and let a dictator direct us?

The answer to all these questions is No. It is up to us all as individuals to make the change happen. I am sure we are all in agreement that this world, not only our nation is in need of change.

There is a tribe called the Masai, that have a traditional greeting "Kasserian Ingera," one would always say to another. It means, "And how are the children?"
I ask each and every person that reads this, and how are the children? Not just your children, but the children of the world, every Man and every Woman. How are the children? Can you honestly answer that question without hesitation?

Like you, I too think it is time for change. But not economic, not political, but change of the individual. We are all so focused on ourselves, that just the thought of helping others makes us angry. We are all so focused on saving ourselves spiritually, financially, or finding our own freedom. When spiritually our Gods and profits have left us long ago to wither away in the world we created. When financially our money isn't worth the medium it is printed on. And when we are focused on our own freedom we do not realize we are condemning others to a prison that we have all been in.

So I say it’s time to look at yourself, what have you done today to change the world? Wait...the world one man can’t change the world...let’s start in your community. What have you done to change your community? What have you done to make your city better?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top