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Old 05-13-2009, 10:16 AM
 
Location: I think my user name clarifies that.
8,293 posts, read 22,513,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Early on in the thread you cut off a poster due to spelling. You also stated that you weren't trolling... Yet it appears that you can ignore poor grammar when the post conforms to your pre-formed opinion.

I think the trolling accusation deserves being revisited.
If I remember right, from reading an earlier post in a different thread, you're a black man who is nearly finished with (I think) a PhD. Am I correct in that?

First of all, kudos to you - regardless of race or anything else. You are to be highly commended!

Second, what separates the black man - such as yourself - who works hard and attains a high level of education (and likely future job success), from the black man who does just the opposite? I'm assuming it's the same thing that separates people of any other race, but is there something I'm totally oblivious to?

 
Old 05-13-2009, 11:04 AM
 
4,990 posts, read 4,466,676 times
Reputation: 1472
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Fairfaxian View Post
What people have to understand is it's unsympathetic ghetto blacks like them that make blacks who escape the trap of poverty and crime not want to go back!

The irony being that in some of the "big bad racist" parts of the country, blacks can make it on their own merit and be at par with whites on recognition and reward, or at the least whites will recognize the effort and input of hard-working and smart blacks. Why do you think we're seeing a prominence of upper and upper-middle income blacks in "big bad racist South" places like Atlanta, Houston, Raleigh, and Hampton Roads?
I think that because the South was the birthplace of the civil rights movement and blacks (along with some northern white sympathizers) fought so hard for their rights that african americans were eventually able to gain a lot of political clout. Plus the Black Church (really the Church in the South in general) might have been a unifying, stabilizing force.

Their seems to be little if no unifying force in the northern inner cities and often things are broken not only at the community but the family level. Not saying the South does not have those same issues but the Southern Church might mitigate that to a less severe extent.

Plus the crack epidemic of the 80's and 90's might have led to northern black professionals, entrepreneurs, and college students to reconsider the South. Many scholars and historians have worked on how slavery and jim crow shaped most of the dysfunction of the black family but I think the crack epidemic of the last two decades really damaged many northeastern inner cities at its core.
 
Old 05-13-2009, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Bayou City
2,991 posts, read 4,478,963 times
Reputation: 2496
Quote:
Originally Posted by the one View Post
thats funny, i see plenty of positive examples among black and brown folk. where i live (florence, whats up!!!) the library is always packed. as is the skate park.

and we dont really have "orientals", very few asians really, its mostly black and brown where im at.

there are plenty of education minded people around me. sure not everyone, but slacking off transcends race, ethnicity, color.

why is that hard to understand?
Because many are content with defining work ethic in terms of race and culture. I would submit that it's impossible to prove that one culture is inherently inferior to another with regards to work ethic. Those that attempt to do so often rely on the crutch of stereotypically-slanted "facts" to give merit to their point.
 
Old 05-14-2009, 02:17 AM
 
Location: Tucson/Nogales
16,530 posts, read 20,094,501 times
Reputation: 22536
There's nothing wrong with Blacks and Hispanics, they just have different values. In my experience with Hispanics, mostly Mexicans, I find them to be the least materialistic people I've ever met. Blacks coming in second.

I work in a healthcare facility with Philipino's, Blacks, Hispanics, Whites. Just looking at the parking lot you can spot the Philipino cars, they are among the most expensive cars in the lot. Who is right there to volunteer for overtime?
The Philipino's, Whites, Blacks, Hispanics, in that order.

The Philipino's will work 60-80 hours a week, and more, if they have to, to obtain all their American goodies. I'm White, and you'd have to hire a tow truck to get met there to even work one extra hour of overtime per week.
The Hispanics? They're just as bad as I am! The Blacks are little more willing to work some overtime, particularly if they have a nice new car to pay for.

To me, it's all pure insanity, to watch these workaholic, money hungry Philipino's destroy their health by working 60-80 hours a week.

I laugh right along with the two Mexican aides that work there with me and a couple of the Black Aides at these idiotic Asian/Philipino's busting their butts to keep making payments on, say, on a new Mercedes or BMW.

To me, it's the height of immaturity! Why on earth would anyone want to make them role models!
 
Old 05-14-2009, 03:19 AM
 
Location: Sandpoint, Idaho
2,880 posts, read 5,088,527 times
Reputation: 3020
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
I am hispanic and will give what has been my observation. Not stat or charts, just my observation:

1. Cultural differences: In general orientals seem to be more education minded. I read en example from the the book "Ten things you can't say in America" by Larry Elder.
He cites in the book how a friend took him to a park where there were a lot of hispanic kids doing all these amazing skateboard moves. Now, he took him inside the library and showed him all these orieantal parents with their kids reading and doing research. He then asked him to fast forward the picture ten or twenty years into the future. He asked him who will be the future CEOs. Most likely the orientals.

2. Another cultural difference is the type of family relations each group has. I have been in the Army 31 years now. In those years I have noticed that the main reason many hispanic Soldiers get out is because the wife wants to live close to mom and dad. Many of those Soldiers have stated they like being in the service but decided to go where the wife wants them to go. I have explained the education opportunities to some hispanic families to enlist and take advantage of that. In one case the husband was the guy cleaning offices and we used to chat when he came to mine. A very bright and hard working young man. He wanted to advance in life. He was interested in enlisting for three years so he could get education assistance. His wife said no and he went along.

3. There are many social reform groups that in my opinion harm these groups than help them. They seem to have this victimization agenda and they keep feeding it to blacks, hispanic, and women and it is spreading to whites also. To me they keep making these groups feel the government and society owes them for being victims. In general many seem to accept government social programs and stay at the lowest economic level.

I look around and I see Jews and orientals. I do not see them in hordes demonstrating how bad it is. I am sure there may be pocket here and there. However, I venture to guess that if you look at ratios, they are not in unemployment lines in proportion to their numbers. They are not asking for food stamps as much either. They find a way to make it in life.
They are slowly but surely chugging along and opening businesses, going to school, getting college degrees. They are not just sitting down whinning how bad they got it and how they are victims of society even though they have been discriminated, remember how Japanese were sent to camps during WWI? If they do whine, they may do it while they are doing something about it.

I have copied their work ethic and their focus type cultural positives. My wife and I used to go to the library with our kids every weekend, we spend countless hours helping them with their homework, when we did not qualify for government scholarship assistance, my wife spend countless hour looking for scholarships all over the internet and made our youngest daughter sign so many applications and write so many papers required in the applications. It paid off. Whether it was $50 here, a $100 there, $500 over there, etc. She got enough for her to pay for all her four years and graduating this 16 May as a top 10 graduate. She still has leftover money from those scholarships to almost cover most of her masters program.
Following the example of Jews and orientals helped us, a hispanic family, go further in life.

You have a great day.
El Amigo
El Amigo,
Fantastic job as a parent!! This approach to life used to be the American way. You do our country proud in more ways than one!
S.
 
Old 05-14-2009, 04:12 AM
 
2,385 posts, read 3,712,543 times
Reputation: 2395
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMiiorHateMii View Post
I gave you suggestions to where you can find those answers. Another book is "Guns, Germ's and Steel" if you want to know why people progress and other's do not.
Yeah, Guns, Germs and Steel is largely bull****.

Paraphrased: Some societies had no natural resources, so they couldn't thrive and consequently conquer and other societies didn't thrive because they had an overabundance, so they felt no need to conquer.

lol. That outlook really doesn't explain anything.

I'm going to go with Occam's Razor here and say that the overall disposition of the culture is what causes cultures to take the direction that they do. I'm not saying that any of these directions are positive or negative but only the that personality of a culture has a lot (if not more in some cases) to do with how a society chooses to define and therefore create what their idea of success is. For example, back in the day, to the British, it was taking over the world, for the Native Americans it was hunting buffalo and being hunter/gatherers. I'm not making any judgments over which was better, they both have their merits and deficits.

Other than disposition --> culture --> learned behavior, how can you explain why Asians don't only do well over here, but that the countries of South Korea and Japan have the most educated, highest achieving students? They rank #1 and #2, respectively, as having the best education system. The middle class in Japan makes up 92% of the population. You can't use American racism, pros or cons, to explain that away.

To each their own, if people want to gangbang, then let them. The problem comes when these types of people outnumber individuals who are educated, focused, and striving for achievement. It will happen because the uneducated types have more offspring than the educated. The U.S. education system is already around #25 and falling every year. What happens then? How are we going to contain the ignorance and violence that is to befall us? It seems that Americans want to bury their head in the sand and pretend that this time isn't coming, but it's already started. I'm not trying to be alarmist, I'm just pointing out a trend that seems to be gaining momentum.
 
Old 05-14-2009, 05:02 AM
 
1,121 posts, read 3,106,826 times
Reputation: 1122
It seems simple to me. It's all a matter of cultural difference.
Asians have a cultural background of not embarrassing their ancestors so they strive for success to achieve that.
Hispanics have a cultural background of protecting their families so they form gangs to achieve that.
African Americans have a cultural background of being mistreated by white men. Many families have not overcome this "you owe me" status so they have a "beat the system attitude" These people are doomed to be failures. But that is why the most successful african american people are either racially mixed and/or have parents who hold progressive attitudes towards the future.
Any race of people living in the USA will never be successful until they figure out what it takes to be successful in THIS COUNTRY and not just in their mind.
 
Old 05-14-2009, 07:08 AM
 
Location: I think my user name clarifies that.
8,293 posts, read 22,513,827 times
Reputation: 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by tijlover View Post
There's nothing wrong with Blacks and Hispanics, they just have different values. In my experience with Hispanics, mostly Mexicans, I find them to be the least materialistic people I've ever met. Blacks coming in second.

I work in a healthcare facility with Philipino's, Blacks, Hispanics, Whites. Just looking at the parking lot you can spot the Philipino cars, they are among the most expensive cars in the lot. Who is right there to volunteer for overtime?
The Philipino's, Whites, Blacks, Hispanics, in that order.

The Philipino's will work 60-80 hours a week, and more, if they have to, to obtain all their American goodies. I'm White, and you'd have to hire a tow truck to get met there to even work one extra hour of overtime per week.
The Hispanics? They're just as bad as I am! The Blacks are little more willing to work some overtime, particularly if they have a nice new car to pay for.

To me, it's all pure insanity, to watch these workaholic, money hungry Philipino's destroy their health by working 60-80 hours a week.

I laugh right along with the two Mexican aides that work there with me and a couple of the Black Aides at these idiotic Asian/Philipino's busting their butts to keep making payments on, say, on a new Mercedes or BMW.

To me, it's the height of immaturity! Why on earth would anyone want to make them role models!
You are absolutely entitled to that mentality and approach to work.

I would just say that you need to be careful not to complain (and you haven't in this post) about "all those rich people driving their expensive cars". You're making the conscious choice to work less and live with less.

Unfortunately, too many people (of no particular race) want to work less but still live with more.
 
Old 05-14-2009, 07:14 AM
 
Location: Here and There
2,539 posts, read 3,280,053 times
Reputation: 3766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violett View Post
Yeah, Guns, Germs and Steel is largely bull****.

Paraphrased: Some societies had no natural resources, so they couldn't thrive and consequently conquer and other societies didn't thrive because they had an overabundance, so they felt no need to conquer.

lol. That outlook really doesn't explain anything.

I'm going to go with Occam's Razor here and say that the overall disposition of the culture is what causes cultures to take the direction that they do. I'm not saying that any of these directions are positive or negative but only the that personality of a culture has a lot (if not more in some cases) to do with how a society chooses to define and therefore create what their idea of success is. For example, back in the day, to the British, it was taking over the world, for the Native Americans it was hunting buffalo and being hunter/gatherers. I'm not making any judgments over which was better, they both have their merits and deficits.

Other than disposition --> culture --> learned behavior, how can you explain why Asians don't only do well over here, but that the countries of South Korea and Japan have the most educated, highest achieving students? They rank #1 and #2, respectively, as having the best education system. The middle class in Japan makes up 92% of the population. You can't use American racism, pros or cons, to explain that away.

To each their own, if people want to gangbang, then let them. The problem comes when these types of people outnumber individuals who are educated, focused, and striving for achievement. It will happen because the uneducated types have more offspring than the educated. The U.S. education system is already around #25 and falling every year. What happens then? How are we going to contain the ignorance and violence that is to befall us? It seems that Americans want to bury their head in the sand and pretend that this time isn't coming, but it's already started. I'm not trying to be alarmist, I'm just pointing out a trend that seems to be gaining momentum.
Great post!
 
Old 05-14-2009, 07:33 AM
 
2 posts, read 4,466 times
Reputation: 11
Okay, I would like to address a few things here. Some of the ignorance that continues to emerge in America is classifying Hispanics as a "brown race". Hispanic is an umbrella term that encompasses all countries that speak Spanish. There isn't much to this ethnicity than the fact that they all share one language, moreover, most of the Spanish speakers of the world are not "brown", they are white.

This already shows how irrelevant and how inaccurate your information is. As of now, according the Census Bureau, Cubans are the second "white" people earning the highest income in the United States, behind Jewish Americans. That said, this already dispels your whole, "Hispanic neighborhoods" idea, which was ridiculous since the beginning. The 'brown' people that you mention are most likely mestizo, a mix of European and Indian descent. In most countries, these mestizo people are low class and come to America in order to receive rights that they don't receive in their own country. However, assigning an entire race to these people is ignorant, because truly science has abolished the theory of race.

Regardless, how can you classify hispanics as a whole when most of them are white? This means that you are also degrading your race and in turn have to realize that it's not the ethnicity that creates these neighborhoods, it's the poverty that they all suffer.

Furthermore, one neighborhood does not represent the majority. Although it may seem that you have these plethora of people in these separate groups, it does not mean that the notion is widespread. I live in Florida and there are a considerable amount of ethnic groups. However, the Hispanic population here not only outsmarts but out classes the non-hispanic white population. In the senior class, positions 3-8 are Hispanics, not necassarily white though.
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