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Old 08-08-2009, 03:19 PM
 
261 posts, read 584,531 times
Reputation: 96

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maude Kipz View Post
continuing the troll, eh? I have a couple points to make, but them am done with you because you don't know what you are talking about.

1) slave owners did not takes their slaves on long trips to the coast and dump them into the ocean. The slave traders did that. And it was more often the disgusting boat conditions that killed them. Throwing your product overboard was a waste of money, unless it was already dead. letting them be packed amongst filth and barely fed and watered saved money. instances of persons going overboard did occur, but slaving was a business. think like a businessman.

2) I refuse to take a fictional movie as how the past seriously was. I am not that gullible. And what about in areas other than new york? You're telling me that the mafia somehow killed every gang EVERYWHERE and then only the african-americans and mexicans made new gangs? Everyone else just decided to shape up? Also, claiming that every murder done by a mafia member (I didn't deny its existence, I claimed that they are not considered the threat they were at their peak) is covered up and every one done by a well-organized gang isn't is just ludicrous generalization. And I'd love to know what you know about Natives because I know that my lakota cousins and their friends on the rez could use a good laugh.

3) the IRA and its offshoots are considered political terrorist groups, not gangs. it is Ireland's version of Al-Queda. They shoot people and do bombings in the name of forcibly seperating ireland from the rest of the UK. They don't sell drugs, live in shoddy ghettos, or kill anyone who does as much as look at them funny.

4) There are poor people of all skin colors all over the world. There are plenty of poor white, brown, red, and yellow people that live in their own neighborhoods in this country. Most of them are generally good people. A lot of mexicans and african-americans are poor and choose to live normal lives. Why would gangs appeal more to those two groups?
1) A slave trade is also a slave owner because he owns the slaves until he can find a new buyer. They dumped them into the ocean if they even looked at them funny because they were cruel and mad men. Slaving was a business but anyone who knows anyhting about ship masters and sea men in the 17th century knows they were notoroiously cruel and liked to make examples out of people
2)The irish wer emostly in the north because thats where they immigrated to, the fact remains that they were not considered white until after ww2 and more commonly married blacks than germans for that reason. Most Gnags are in major cities. In 1900 america, most major cities were on the east coast where immigrants immigrated to. ask why is al capone an italian the most famous gang banger of all time, by 1930 there was only 3 white gangs left, italian-germans-irish, and black, mexican, kkk if you can call it that. KKK was different because they existed and formed in rural america where few other groups were like the skin heads. There are no italians in mississippi so you only have kkk there.
Latin and African american street gangs do drive by shooting and shoot people and run away. They expect people to fear them and no one to rat on them or they will kill them in braod day. The mafia depends on not getting caught, they will cut up a body and sell it with regular meat, bury it in the bushes, do anything to hide a body. When was the alst time you heard of the crips, bloods, or ms13 digging up graves?

African americans=crips and bloods had different gangs because of segregation, italian gangs couldn't even come into the african american community. There are few italians in texas, arizona, california in comparaison to mexicans who also faced segregation, it would be suicide for the mafia to try and go up against either group outside their turf. The irish and german mafias died down because they ended up getting killed in dispropotionate numbers, the sicilian mafia basically controlled an entire province-sicily, whereas the german and irish gangs were just guy with guns, and into robberies and murders. Italians won the gang war in most major cities so after a whiile theyeither quit gangs or joined the mafia.

3=terrorist group is just a gang with more members, all terrorist and gangs sell drugs because its the only way to make money. You can't have guns and bombs if you have no money, unless your a robber, which is lousy pay and high risk, your not going to start a terrorist organization off robbing banks. Al qaeda is a terrorist organization and the number one exporter of cocaine.

4. Gangs don't appeal more to poor people, if you know someone who was shotyour mor e likely to join a gang for protection. If you live in a rich neighbourhood you don't know anyone who was every beat up, or shot, your not going to join a gang. People from rich neighborhoods do lots of crime, mostly theft corporate crimes.

 
Old 08-08-2009, 03:39 PM
 
Location: Sandpoint, Idaho
2,880 posts, read 5,072,582 times
Reputation: 3020
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmikezd View Post
I know all about what the blacks had to go thru years ago. What I don't like is "Why do they hate white people so much?)
Hmm...I would suspect that for some your first sentence answers your question! Not condoning hate mind you, but trying to understand it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmikezd View Post
All I can say is "I HAD NOTHIING TO DO WITH IT" I wasn't even born yet.
The "it" is everything and the focal point of most discussions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmikezd View Post
I hate it when a white guy does something to a black guy and all hell breaks lose.
I guess that would depend on what is done. I suspect you are alluding to perceived slights? There is no doubt that Whites and Blacks have a long way to go before genuine peace is achieved.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmikezd View Post
When a black guy does something to a white guy you never hear anything about it. Everytime a black person has something done to them old Jesse jackson has to show up on TV and talks crap.
There is a whole lot of politics and positioning that goes no via high profile national cases. There is also a divide between public and private speech on these matters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmikezd View Post
Alot of people would like the blacks to just shut the hell up and STOP yelling everytime a white guy even looks at them funny. I have known about 50 Black guys in my life and 95% of them was going something illegal in some way.
Hmmm...It is hard to respond to such a blanket statement. It seems as though perception is the key. 95% of the blacks I have known are not generally amped or into illegal stuff. You may be hanging around the wrong crowds. If 95% are involved in illegal activity, then it stands to reason why they might be on edge.

But I tell you this, if you bother to find out what they experience in their daily lives, you would likely be shocked as to the funny looks they get, regardless of their appearance.

Suffice to say, the primary lesson of racism in this country is that each generation must discover it and learn to deal with it in its own way. Given our history, it is unlikely to ever go away...

S.
 
Old 08-09-2009, 04:08 AM
 
Location: Sandpoint, Idaho
2,880 posts, read 5,072,582 times
Reputation: 3020
leanna, leanna...

LOL. Why are people unable to discuss race objectively without getting so defensive?? Never ceases to amaze me, especially when the most defensive have the least exposure! If you wish to build arguments, get beyond your own personal experiences!

Stormfront? LOL...you have a rather prejudiced view of Idaho, no? I have been Asian longer than you have and am older so I will refrain from the jname calling

I will address your comments in an orderly manner. 'Tis the way of Da Front...

Quote:
Originally Posted by leaana View Post
you are basically insulting asian students when that is a major laugh considering the truth is even the american education system pretty much is a sham and most students do NOT learn critical thinking skills and curriculum is mostly rote and biased as well.
There is nothing "basic" about insults. Nowhere did I do so. Any insults are the figments of your imagination. There was, however, quite a bit of first hand experience and empirical evidence. I am a big fan of Asian students, but not of their schooling systems. But I am also a huge fan of African, Hispanic, and European students, but each for different reasons.

In my opinion, the best schools and best approaches to education in the world are found in the United States. But sadly not everyone is so lucky to attend these schools. Elite schools in Europe are next. Again, with Asia, I'll take the students over the schools.


I assuming you are Asian American and not Asian and therefore without direct experiences with education in Asia. I'll help you out, but pease drop the surly, "you were critical of Asian schools so you must be racist" act. I am too old and traveled for that. And besides, I have been Asian longer than you! ANd even if you are Asian living in Asia, Asia is incredible diverse. And while in the US Asian Americans bond a a single political entity, there is all about national affiliations.

Some pointers.
One, there is no US education "system." Fed expenditures on US public schooling is about 7%. Of total US expenditures? less than 3%. Instead, the US has a decentralized system, both in terms of funding and governance. We have unique mix of state, local and private control. Perhaps the "sham" that you refer to is lack of a system. Some make that argument. I would argue otherwise: our strength is our decentralization and diversity of models.

In Asia, all Confucian countries of NE Asia are predominantly state systems. For many years, private schools were mainly for those who did not score high but who had the $$ to go to uni. That said, in this past generation, private education is becoming popular in in its own right.

As to quality...that is really a whole other thread.

I will say this. Contrary to your prejudiced beliefs of my views, I have great respect for the Confucian systems. I have had some excellent students. However (ready for the criticism?), the systems take great tolls on their students, particularly the less academically inclined. Students are tracked early and competition via exams winnows out the weak in a way that really beats them down. The pressure is so great that parents try to scrape the $$ necessary to send their kids to the US or Australia. Students in Asia more than elsewhere are products of the environment and the rues therein.

In the US, three things stand out. There are a large % of terrible students, students that would not have qualified for uni in many countries. Two, there is far greater flexibility and choice. Three, the top students in the US have received amazing educational experiences.


As for rote, this is the trend due to standardization. It is a terrible trend and born of the present generation.

As for bias, your point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leaana View Post
This means that even though it seems that the asian educational system has the stereotype of being more memorization, in application that is false.
No dear, I think your views of Asia are almost complete stereotypes born out of the cultural separation from your ancestral homeland. Asia is now what you want it to be rather than what it is.

let's be clear. The Confucian system in Asia is exam based. Advancement is based on exam performances not community service or singing kumbaya. For this reason, NE Asia has a rather unique educational industry, that of the cram schools: juku, hagwan, buxiban, tuition, etc.

Am I saying that teachers do not teach and students do not learn? Of course not. Those are voices in your head. The elite schools in the US are rooted in the liberal arts, critical writing and thinking: the Western education.


The Asian students that can break free from the limits of Confucian schooling are truly fantastic, as they have the best of both worlds. Such students are as rare in Asia as they are in the US. But in the US, Asian Americans are great examples of that blend of East & West.


Quote:
Originally Posted by leaana View Post
the fact is you have to be able to understand and apply here or there, it does not matter. they are not stupid to not realize this.
>> I am not sure where you are going with this. Will you now accuse me of slandering your people.?

>> Those students who memorize do so wither out of weakness or out of convenience.
>> Courses that emphasize memorization do so out of laziness and self-interest of faculty
>>Only a handful of students embrace going outside of the box, has to do with risk-reward.

You seem to idealise Asia. There are very stupid people there. Criminals, Murderers, Rapists. Terrible test takers. Rude and disrespectful students. In other words, Asians are humans, too. Does that surprise you?

Asia is not Lake Wobegon. Asia has the most people in poverty. Yet from this reality check come some pretty darned good students, despite antiquated schooling systems and unnecessarily brutal and conformist instruction/propaganda.You cannot yin without yang.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leaana View Post
asian students abroad and here succeed due to their "intelligence" and hard work.
>> Hmmm...of course they do, as do topic Hispanic students, European students, American students, African students, etc. Your point?

>> there are also a fair share of Asian trust fund kids, money launderers, and drug/gang members.

Again, Asians are not immune from the full complement of social realities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leaana View Post
I had a discourse a long time ago about a boyband in south korea. That band consists of two that have iq's above 130 and 4 out of the 5 attend university while pursuing their career as well as seriously trying to learn to speak the language of every country they tour in. they speak four to five languages and attend university, some full-time along with their music career. this is not that unique in asia but a sample of the type of mindframe and attitude towards life. two of them scored in the highest percentile for university, one of which scored perfect. they all come from very successful families which includes doctors, lawyers etc. none of them have immigrated to america and there are many more where that came from. i think your views are very skewed and unrealistic.
First, kudos to the boy band. That is always great to hear.

Not unique in Asia, sure. Rare? Absolutely. Of course it is rare. To argue otherwise is sheer folly.

Many great rock bands come come from wealth. Van Halen comes to mind. Again, what is your point?

You are so darn defensive. You really think I am giving the "pure memorization, cannot think, not creative, etc." argument, don;t you? lol...those are voices in your head coming from years of racial and cultural politics. Put them aside and debate the points!!

I have been listening to Taiwanese Mandarin pop longer than you have been alive! I think Asians are incredibly creative. The problem in Asia is the creative arts or sports have not fully caught on as primary careers. Your example is classic. Instead of talking the music and success of the band, you quaified the band with their intelligence--a wholly irrelevant piece of info. You inserted it b/c that is how a NE Asian would qualify their discussions with parents, "he is in a band, but he also got 2400 on the SAT and got into Harvard." Defensive! Also there are not terribly encouraged by parents.

look, I don;t blame you for your defensiveness. Asians in America are still stereotyped like crazy. But your approach to my comments are themselves based on an immigrant's idealization of the home country. It is your views that are unrealistic and limited. ANd even racially biased.

I worked with Korean professors ten years both as colleagues and collaborators. I am usually the first to praise their students and they are the first to speak of the woes of the system. I do not know one that would keep their kid in the Korean system if they could afford to do so. Not for the quality or discipline, world famous in both, but for the pressure and for the odds that Korea and Asia in general is not a place for second chances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leaana View Post
i was the only asian in the class and scored the highest on both tests along with another nonasian student. the instructer totally ignored my score and announced that it was only the white student that understood the material. i was flabberghasted at first and realized later that is in keeping with the prejudice and stereotypes they want to perpetuate to safeguard their own ego. otherwise, the instructer would not ignore the fact a nonwhite student was able to also. that's very racist, sickening and unfair.
I think you were fully justified in getting angry. The teacher is either obviously useless or made an honest oversight. I cannot possibly comment on what the teacher did or your feelings, but clearly you felt wronged in a way has left scarred.

We all have our scars, but to get them so overtly from a teacher is truly unforgivable.

But your example confirms my suspicions. You took any criticism on Asia (as they were hardly negative) as a personal affront. You see the Idaho and you are ready to pounce, right? You gloss over supportive evidence and carefully chosen words and see only Anti-Asian racism in my comments. Had I met you and asked you where you were from, you would have ripped me to shreds. (Yet if one attends a national university, one asks this question ten times a week!!)

But you cannot see the forest for the trees. Asian students are pouring overseas to get their degrees. You do not know this b/c you are in the US and living the Asian American experience not the Asian experience. Most foreign students in Asian universities are there from poorer countries or for a semester abroad.

Now, before you get a psycho, things are changing. Within a generation, you will see far more non-Asian foreigners get their four year degrees in Asia. But not just yet. Right now, the net traffic is easily in favor of exiting Asia.

So chill out. Don't get so defensive. And really look in the mirror at your own racism and nationalism, something that is rife in Asia. And do yourself a favor, don't jump to conclusions.
 
Old 08-09-2009, 06:38 AM
miu
 
Location: MA/NH
16,469 posts, read 33,425,465 times
Reputation: 15198
Default What's Wrong With Blacks, Hispanics but Not Asians?

Sandpointian - In regards to this thread's original title and without wallowing in minutia and excuses for those that aren't Asian, I still stand by my original opinion that Asians immigrants and their American born successive generations are succeeding in the US because:

1. They fully appreciate the opportunities of living in the US and realize that being here is far better than being in their home country.
2. They don't wallow in the bad memories of the past, or if they do, it's only for the purpose of helping their drive to better themselves.
3. They instill in their children the value of a good higher education.
4. The intense desire to better their family's fortunes. And to that goal, they are willing to work several jobs at once, no matter how menial and without complaint.
5. They are good at living frugally and saving their money. They don't feel the need to impress others by flashing around material goods.
6. The whole family is willing to live together in close quarters and pool their money to the common family goal of buying real estate and/or sending the children to college and graduate school.
7. Having an extremely strong sense of preserving the family honor and having filial duty. Saving face is very important to Asians. Also equally as strong is having respect for one's family's elder adults... forever. Just because a child becomes an adult, doesn't mean that the young adult is now equal to their parents. And the oldest family members get the most respect and power. And that is a huge part of why there are hardly any teen pregnancies and single mothers in the Asian community and why welfare recipients are a rarity. Bringing shame upon one's family is very bad and cause for being disowned.
8. Others observing the Asians living here see them as quiet well behaved law abiding people. They never call out sick, they come to work on time. They are not known for being angry or aggressive people. They are easy to have as workers and co-workers.

Talk about the elite and the best of the Asians coming to the US all you want but they are actually the minority of the Asians here. And the majority of immigrants are those that were the poor and underprivileged in their home Asian countries. They are the ones working hard and quietly in the restaurants and in the hotels doing the menial work like housekeeping and janitorial staff.

This thread is not worth googling up the statistics to back up my posts. I feel that most will agree that if blacks and Hispanics followed the Asian way of thought and living, they would do a lot better in the US.

And very contrary to what others make think of this post, I believe that the original purpose of this thread was to help blacks and Hispanics to better in the US, not put any of them down. And there will be broad generalizations made, however none of us are writing a Ph.D dissertation here.

Yes, there are Asian gangs and criminals, but they tend to prey on other Asians. NPR featured a new book on the Snakeheads, the group that brought in illegal Asian immigrants. I recommend a listen to the broadcast. But again, that is delving into minutia.

Human Trafficking Revealed In 'The Snakehead' : NPR
 
Old 08-09-2009, 06:52 AM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,088,829 times
Reputation: 1814
Quote:
Originally Posted by miu View Post
Sandpointian - In regards to this thread's original title and without wallowing in minutia and excuses for those that aren't Asian, I still stand by my original opinion that Asians immigrants and their American born successive generations are succeeding in the US because:

1. They fully appreciate the opportunities of living in the US and realize that being here is far better than being in their home country.
2. They don't wallow in the bad memories of the past, or if they do, it's only for the purpose of helping their drive to better themselves.
3. They instill in their children the value of a good higher education.

4. The intense desire to better their family's fortunes. And to that goal, they are willing to work several jobs at once, no matter how menial and without complaint.
5. They are good at living frugally and saving their money. They don't feel the need to impress others by flashing around material goods.
6. The whole family is willing to live together in close quarters and pool their money to the common family goal of buying real estate and/or sending the children to college and graduate school.
7. Having an extremely strong sense of preserving the family honor and having filial duty. Saving face is very important to Asians. Also equally as strong is having respect for one's family's elder adults... forever. Just because a child becomes an adult, doesn't mean that the young adult is now equal to their parents. And the oldest family members get the most respect and power. And that is a huge part of why there are hardly any teen pregnancies and single mothers in the Asian community and why welfare recipients are a rarity. Bringing shame upon one's family is very bad and cause for being disowned.
8. Others observing the Asians living here see them as quiet well behaved law abiding people. They never call out sick, they come to work on time. They are not known for being angry or aggressive people. They are easy to have as workers and co-workers.

Talk about the elite and the best of the Asians coming to the US all you want but they are actually the minority of the Asians here. And the majority of immigrants are those that were the poor and underprivileged in their home Asian countries. They are the ones working hard and quietly in the restaurants and in the hotels doing the menial work like housekeeping and janitorial staff.

This thread is not worth googling up the statistics to back up my posts. I feel that most will agree that if blacks and Hispanics followed the Asian way of thought and living, they would do a lot better in the US.

And very contrary to what others make think of this post, I believe that the original purpose of this thread was to help blacks and Hispanics to better in the US, not put any of them down. And there will be broad generalizations made, however none of us are writing a Ph.D dissertation here.

Yes, there are Asian gangs and criminals, but they tend to prey on other Asians. NPR featured a new book on the Snakeheads, the group that brought in illegal Asian immigrants. I recommend a listen to the broadcast. But again, that is delving into minutia.

Human Trafficking Revealed In 'The Snakehead' : NPR

There are some points that I have agreed with you on in this thread. But, this was just a very poorly executed counter-post IMO...not that it matters or anything.
 
Old 08-10-2009, 02:19 PM
 
812 posts, read 2,079,285 times
Reputation: 467
Quote:
First, kudos to the boy band. That is always great to hear.

Not unique in Asia, sure. Rare? Absolutely. Of course it is rare. To argue otherwise is sheer folly.

Many great rock bands come come from wealth. Van Halen comes to mind. Again, what is your point?
World Cup Song

YouTube - The fighting spirit of Dong Bang Eng Sub

This is the band I was referring to not an example of their background in itself but to show that there are plenty of elite or intelligent people that don't emigrate, of course whether they have the qualifications to attend ivy league or not. Not everyone of them is from rich backgrounds either. A couple of them struggled financially, and the main vocal often donated blood often just to survive plus eating off of customer plates waiting tables. You are right about most parents not ecouraging this type of career pursuit. one of them particularly, whose father is a lawyer, was adamantly against a music career but he has now come around since obviously they are successful.

My posts were not even meant to put down anyone else as i was making it clear that it's not all elites in america or elsewhere. I just meant that there are those of both fortunate and unfortunate backgrounds in asia including those who emigrate. Of course I know there are unintelligent and unsavory people even in asia of all types of personalities and backgrounds. I also know that there needs to be improvement to the education system, still there are plenty of smart people as well.

i particularly like their voice, they sound like angels. i'm glad they chose to expand their talents, otherwise no one would know how talented they were. when asked what they would have done if they hadn't made it, it was the typical 'businessman' in suit and tie, lawyer, doctor etc.
 
Old 08-12-2009, 04:30 PM
 
Location: Mequon, WI
7,678 posts, read 18,909,463 times
Reputation: 4144
WOW, I had no idea this thread would be this successful.
 
Old 08-15-2009, 11:22 AM
 
Location: 48205
382 posts, read 596,194 times
Reputation: 325
At the outset, I grew up in a very diverse neighborhood. One of my best friends is Asian. It's a crazy and naive notion to believe any race or ethnic group of people is perfect or "problem free". There are Asian gangs in this country, but they're not usually discussed or featured. Based on my exposure to, experiences and discussions w/ Asians and whites, Asians are not oppressed in this country to the same degree as blacks and hispanics because many whites, whether they'll admit it, or not, view themselves intellectually inferior to Asians. It's no secret Asians score pretty high on math and science tests, usually outscoring whites. When many whites speak of Asians, they do so w/ a bitter, resentful and jealous tone. As a result of such academic intimidation, they tend to shy away from Asians. Also, Asians are very ethnically and culturally-oriented. They have strong community pride, keep their traditions alive & relevant, pool their resources and work together well in keeping their communities thriving and successful.
 
Old 08-15-2009, 03:22 PM
 
669 posts, read 1,338,809 times
Reputation: 1014
Here is a thought about it. Who are the majority of Hispanics coming over. They are poor Mexicans, they are not the rich ones with college degrees and doctorates. Hispanics are the same as we are, it's just the ones that are successful aren't jumping across the Rio Grande to work making minimum wage. They are fine where they are at. So you don't have an accurate view of the whole population.
Now, who are the Asians coming over. They need to have enough money first to make it over here and then the U.S. looks more favorably on people who have college degrees when they apply for visas. It costs a lot of money to do all of that paperwork. My wife had to go through it and it's like fill this out and send $300 USD, which is about a month's wages were she's from, and you may hear a response in 24 to 36 months or you may not. That may be step one. Most poor people from countries far away are not going to go through this and then pay for a $1000 airplane ticket to come over. Asia is not sending the same population of people over here as Mexico is. That's just one thought.
 
Old 08-15-2009, 03:30 PM
 
812 posts, read 2,079,285 times
Reputation: 467
^yes, but it's disconcerting that if america was so lucky to have an asian neighbor with even poor chinese jumping the border, it would be a little different outcome because cultural differences. even the ones that came to build railroads were extremely hardworking but not only that thier personality was more refined or astute, often ridiculed for taking 'baths with flowery water' etc. that's the positives that asians possess to some degree. not everything is the same between ethnicities or races and there are strengths and weaknesses. most people working in takeouts etc were from "very" poor backgrounds but asians, especially northeast asians tend to be more progressive in nature. and yes, some would scrape and save for that thousand dollar ticket, if they think the tales of opportunity are true. yes, they are low-class asians but they are not breeding profusely in western countries or in asia, even the poorest asians don't want to stay on welfare etc. it's just a fact.

Last edited by leaana; 08-15-2009 at 03:43 PM..
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