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Old 08-20-2009, 08:17 AM
 
Location: I think my user name clarifies that.
8,293 posts, read 22,466,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire View Post
The very problems which plague African Americans that people are outlining in this thread, happened in the past also. If the past has no bearing on the future, why do we have people RECOUNTING how poorly blacks conduct themselves. According to some, if it happened in the past, it should be of no consequence to the present.

Meaning that if the sentiment of the past having no bearing on the present/future were actually true, those previous recounts would be of no importance. Hypothetically speaking, those same illmannered blacks would suddenly wake up today and be as well mannered and functional as the rest of us. Because after all, past behavior is not a predictor of how one's future will be impacted.
Then who breaks the cycle, and when?

If we're going to speak of personal dysfunction - which we are - identifying the core causes and roots of a problem is the small half of the solution.

Last edited by Omaha Rocks; 08-20-2009 at 08:28 AM..

 
Old 08-20-2009, 08:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks View Post
Then maybe it's time for blacks to stop griping about the past.
Criticism or debate? you be the judge Milwaukee
 
Old 08-20-2009, 10:02 AM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,089,611 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks View Post
Then who breaks the cycle, and when?

If we're going to speak of personal dysfunction - which we are - identifying the core causes and roots of a problem is the small half of the solution.
I agree, the cycle must be broken...and Ill say it again: PRESENT DAY BLACKS will have to reverse their own misfortune regardless of past atrocities and despite the subsequent dysfunctional family structures...

it will be much more beneficial in the long run for blacks to be the most instrumental part of their own improvement.

Yet, all of this is easier said than done..so I like most others, dont have the solution either. BUT as it stands, we are having trouble coming to an agreement on identifying what exactly are the roots of the problem. Which, IMO makes the situation that much more difficult to address. Because if some believe that xyz is inherent in specific groups, then truthfully it IS illogical and there REALLY IS NO POINT for us to expect those groups to conform and function within the structure of a society that is not conducive to their "nature"...Im not saying that position is right or wrong one way or the other..but we cant have both..we cant concede that some groups are just prone to be 'xyz' yet expect them to conform to the societal structures of 'abc'...

So I think there first needs to be a consensus, one way or the other, that either certain groups CAN be reformed to behave within the constructs of our social structure because maybe they ARE NOT inherently that much less capable than other groups. OR we should simply accept that certain groups are incapable of social conformity and as such we would be disallowed to complain at all, when said groups display a propensity to commit more crimes and behave more poorly than the 'average American'.

But to answer your question directly...Black parents must break the cycle. They must instill in the next generation that their future is not significantly hampered by anyone EXCEPT THEMSELVES. Their present situation may have been impacted by past inequality etc. But their future can be almost fully determined by the course which they decide to take in life. And that education can unlock a lot of doors which would otherwise be off limits to them.

But that will not happen, because what is occuring now is that children of ALL RACES are seeing for themselves, that the importance of educational excellence has a greatly diminished value in this society; when compared to the potential success/happiness which one stands to gain from social networking and the 'entertainment industry/arts'.

So at this juncture, Im skeptical as to whether emphasizing education to black children will even be absorbed by them, as they matriculate in an age of degrading reality shows/enterainment, sports, and sexual deviance being exhibited as the quickest, most viable and ensured route to success and happiness.
 
Old 08-20-2009, 11:41 AM
 
Location: I think my user name clarifies that.
8,293 posts, read 22,466,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire View Post
I agree, the cycle must be broken...and Ill say it again: PRESENT DAY BLACKS will have to reverse their own misfortune regardless of past atrocities and despite the subsequent dysfunctional family structures...
This is one of the facts that my wife & I have pounded into the heads of our now-grown children. Regardless of what anybody else does or doesn't do, we are responsible for ourselves - our own behavior, our own decisions. And despite how crappy and unjust the past may have been, or how horribly we may have been treated, we still have to deal with it.


it will be much more beneficial in the long run for blacks to be the most instrumental part of their own improvement.
Right again. That horrible old cliché still rings true. "Give a man a fish..." People of all races ought to have equal opportunity. Beyond that, we need to do it ourselves. And it is for our own benefit that we do.

One of the reason my wife & I so thoroughly enjoy so many of the little things in life (BLTs today for lunch, made with fresh garden tomatoes & lettuce) is because we've both worked hard to get what we have today. Nothing was given to us.

Everybody benefits greatly from their own accomplishments.


Yet, all of this is easier said than done..so I like most others, dont have the solution either. BUT as it stands, we are having trouble coming to an agreement on identifying what exactly are the roots of the problem. Which, IMO makes the situation that much more difficult to address. Because if some believe that xyz is inherent in specific groups, then truthfully it IS illogical and there REALLY IS NO POINT for us to expect those groups to conform and function within the structure of a society that is not conducive to their "nature"...Im not saying that position is right or wrong one way or the other..but we cant have both..we cant concede that some groups are just prone to be 'xyz' yet expect them to conform to the societal structures of 'abc'...
Agreed. Virtually everything is easier said than done.

On the other hand, I'm not sure we're disagreeing about what are the roots of the problem. Everyone knows that Africans were brought to America as slaves. We all know (or informed people do, at least) that there has been horrible mistreatment & injustice. But I think the disagreement is in what degree those roots - things from the past - determine our future.

As far as what groups are prone to "xyz", I'm not sure how much that should weigh in on the dialog either. As I've said before, I live in a wonderful black neighborhood. My black neighbors - especially the young men - are in love with "the donk look" with their cars. Personally, I think it looks stupid. But other than me not doing that to one of my cars, I cannot think of any problem with it. If it's their preference, or tendency, big deal.


So I think there first needs to be a consensus, one way or the other, that either certain groups CAN be reformed to behave within the constructs of our social structure because maybe they ARE NOT inherently that much less capable than other groups. OR we should simply accept that certain groups are incapable of social conformity and as such we would be disallowed to complain at all, when said groups display a propensity to commit more crimes and behave more poorly than the 'average American'.
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. I'm probably not seeing this whole racial situation in the same light a lot of people do. Living where I do, I'm surrounded by fantastic neighbors who just happen to be black. So I'm probably seeing what's good and right, not what's wrong in black families.


But to answer your question directly...Black parents must break the cycle. They must instill in the next generation that their future is not significantly hampered by anyone EXCEPT THEMSELVES.
As a parent myself, I couldn't agree more!


Their present situation may have been impacted by past inequality etc. But their future can be almost fully determined by the course which they decide to take in life. And that education can unlock a lot of doors which would otherwise be off limits to them.
Again, I agree completely. We are at a point in American history when, perhaps like no other time before, virtually all systemic hindrences to black success have been removed. Perhaps one of the biggest problems is that a lot of blacks just don't realize it.


But that will not happen, because what is occuring now is that children of ALL RACES are seeing for themselves, that the importance of educational excellence has a greatly diminished value in this society; when compared to the potential success/happiness which one stands to gain from social networking and the 'entertainment industry/arts'.
Another college professor friend of mine, and I, have been yelling about this for YEARS. You are absolutely, undeniably, 100% spot on!

Where did we get the idea that college was for seeing how many times you could get drunk, and how many times you could get laid, before Christmas break? What a waste!

We've also accepted this sinister notion that the other purpose of college is nothing more than to be able to get a job that pays more money.

Post-secondary education in America needs major reform! But that's a topic for another thread...

So at this juncture, Im skeptical as to whether emphasizing education to black children will even be absorbed by them, as they matriculate in an age of degrading reality shows/enterainment, sports, and sexual deviance being exhibited as the quickest, most viable and ensured route to success and happiness.
Agreed. And this brings us full circle. We can see the issues and problems. We just can't make other people make the right decisions and do the right thing.
 
Old 08-20-2009, 12:04 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,089,611 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks View Post
Very well said O.R.
 
Old 08-20-2009, 12:33 PM
 
8,805 posts, read 9,626,228 times
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A recent study has shown that all the programs intended to lift people out of poverty don't work, which is quite obvious, but what they have discovered is that the children of young ,unemployed, undereducated parents can be "rescued " from this cycle, by teaching Parenting classes and "baby college."

Too often we associate graduation from school and training as the way, but nothing has more impact on a persons economic future than the acquisition of "Non-Cognitive Skills." Unlike cognitive skills, which are set in early child hood, these can be taught at any time. One example of these skills is persistence. People who are stuck in poverty seem to lack these skills due to living a an environment that does not require them.
I am always struck by the number of kids who come to school late in areas where there is extreme poverty, or how much louder inner city schools seem to be . Every one, teachers included black, white or Asian seem to be always yelling at poor city kids. private schools and boarding schools are so quiet, even when a child misbehaves .
 
Old 08-22-2009, 05:23 PM
 
Location: The Land of Reason
13,292 posts, read 10,104,944 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thriftylefty View Post
A recent study has shown that all the programs intended to lift people out of poverty don't work, which is quite obvious, but what they have discovered is that the children of young ,unemployed, undereducated parents can be "rescued " from this cycle, by teaching Parenting classes and "baby college."

Too often we associate graduation from school and training as the way, but nothing has more impact on a persons economic future than the acquisition of "Non-Cognitive Skills." Unlike cognitive skills, which are set in early child hood, these can be taught at any time. One example of these skills is persistence. People who are stuck in poverty seem to lack these skills due to living a an environment that does not require them.
I am always struck by the number of kids who come to school late in areas where there is extreme poverty, or how much louder inner city schools seem to be . Every one, teachers included black, white or Asian seem to be always yelling at poor city kids. private schools and boarding schools are so quiet, even when a child misbehaves .
It is a noble idea and proably one that can work if the parents involved were not trying to work their low paying jobs in order to put food on the table or fight their own addiction demons or depending on the neighborhood try not to get killed on the way home.
 
Old 08-22-2009, 05:29 PM
 
Location: The Land of Reason
13,292 posts, read 10,104,944 times
Reputation: 3530
Quote:
Originally Posted by thriftylefty View Post
A thread criticizing African Americans that is over 100 pages. That is an indicator that the problems facing African Americans are not all in the past. Sociology and Psychology 101 states that peoples behavior is a direct response to their environment not their past.
True, but b/c of the past it has created the negative environment of the present. ex. Policies of the regeean era had opened the door for cheap cocaine to enter the US thus creating crack thus destroying famillies of all races, but the poor uneducated minority has suffered greater because of it. this holds true especially through the judical system
 
Old 08-22-2009, 05:56 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,628,664 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jungeon View Post
No the other guy is right your dead wrong on this issue. How many asians get shot by police for crimes they never did? How many asians get hung by lynch mobs. Italians are more discriminated than asians. Sure people make fun of the way asians look but thats about it. No one ever not hires you for being asian. Affirmative action works for asians as when they apply to colleges it makes them say we have 30% non whites and there are almost all asians. Asians were not the most scruntinzed as unamerica, they were immigrants who came here and faced all the same discrimination that hispanics, german, italilians, irish and so on faced, but they have not faced an inch of the discrimination blacks and hispanics have faced, like being born in america and denied citizenship.
Re: Italians; it also depends on whether the individual looks stereotypically 'Italian'..........my G/F is a blue eyed blonde of 1/2 that heritage and could not pass for one except by her maiden name. My birth surname also sounds Italian/E Indian/Hispanic etc. and may have caused problems for me----------never mind I am Nordic White in appearance.
 
Old 08-22-2009, 06:16 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,628,664 times
Reputation: 3785
I may have posted this earlier in this (long) thread, so I will apologize up front.

Why is it that Blacks born/raised in Africa and their US born children are arguably the most successful socio-economic group here? Read that surpassing even Asians in many cases..............

That casts doubts on racism being a huge factor in keeping the Black man 'down'.
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