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Old 08-24-2009, 06:06 AM
 
191 posts, read 713,256 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dusk99 View Post
So if we deprive the most impoverished nations of their best talent, how will they ever rise out of poverty?
So are we going into these countries and raiding them of their best and brightest??? Are we snatching bodies now?

Last time I heard these immigrants were coming here of their own free will!

 
Old 08-24-2009, 06:10 AM
 
191 posts, read 713,256 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbub22 View Post
, we have to equal the playing field
As a member of the mainstream American middle class, I have to ask, "What more do you want us to do, that we haven't done already."

After the lowering of standards and dumbing down of testing and affirmative action and quotas and political correctness, what would you have America do for you now?
 
Old 08-24-2009, 09:42 AM
 
Location: :~)
1,483 posts, read 2,824,155 times
Reputation: 1519
Default What else?

If we are talking about the kids living in poverty, the playing field is not level. The educational standards for those areas are not up to par. We've seen story after story where the SAT scores are subpar. Now, admittedly, I am crossing into areas that I am not truly familiar. Because, by the way, I am white with a graduate level education so my situation is not comparable. But, the basis for my information comes from my spouse, friends, readings, and a little first hand knowledge so this not a complete shot in the dark but rather issues I have a little knowledge. One more thing, I am not a liberal or a tree hugger, but rather very conservative.

So, back to question, how do we fix the problem? Your statement about affirmative action (AA). I don't think people of color like AA. The intent is good but what I have found is they find it demeaning. I would say our current path is working but I think a black/colored person is better suited to answer that question. Coincidently, my wife is black hispanic and would say there has been major improvements but there has been limitations. Such as, in the south, as a whole they were not so quick to help. While in the north, she witnessed dramactic differences. So far, they don't seem so quick to title/classify or limit people. Limit people? For example, in the south, if my wife called XYZ company she experienced limited, rude assistance or none all togethor. But later, I would call and everything was available. Now, this did not happen all the time but it occurred. Sorry, that is the truth. This is so true, she occasionally deferred to me to make those calls. Sorry, to bring that up because I am starting to cross into another topic. I will caution, that's her personal view so I don't know if that applies to everyone.

With being said, opening our schoolhouse doors to everyone is helping, so I personally feel we are on the correct path to an even playing field. Its a known fact, education is a major contributor to leading a positive life.
 
Old 08-24-2009, 09:53 AM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,088,829 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italianbluesboy View Post
As a member of the mainstream American middle class, I have to ask, "What more do you want us to do, that we haven't done already."

After the lowering of standards and dumbing down of testing and affirmative action and quotas and political correctness, what would you have America do for you now?
There's the problem...people seem to think that with all the problems that accompany longstanding, deeply ingrained disparities, that there is something we can do NOW, that will quickly reverse the errors of the past. That simply wont be the case. It didnt take only a few years or even decades for these problems to become embedded within the African American culture, and there wont be a quick solution to fix the problem.

We are but a granule in the sands of time; in the chronology of this country even. We cant expect 20 years of racial progressiveness and harmony to nullify the effects of 400 years of inequality/racial disharmony. Thats just not how it works. Hardly anything in life works that way.
 
Old 08-24-2009, 12:07 PM
 
44,580 posts, read 43,115,486 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reelist in Atlanta View Post
You seem to think that the people who devote their lives to the study and research of IQ are stupid. You think they are going to give a test to someone who knows nothing about anything in the questions and then conclude that they have a low IQ because they can't answer the questions. That is ludacrous! Where did you get such an idea? Do you really believe that?
Most people know simple numbers. They can be asked what comes next in this progression - 2, 4, 6, __. If someone does not know basic numbers, they cannot and will not be asked this question. This is so obvious and simple. Yet you seem to think that this may have flown right over the heads of the experts. That's somewhat silly, don't you think?

IQ has absolutely nothing to do with how much one knows. IQ is the ability or capacity to learn. There are different IQ tests for any level of knowledge right down to knowing nothing. Tests can use such things as shapes, physical items instead of numbers, reaction times, etc for folks who know next to nothing.
Guns, Germs and Steel is perhaps a viable theory for why different civilizations separate and unknown to each other evolved differently based on environmental factors. However, it fails to explain why the differences persist to the degree that they do in the World today. Everyone knows about all of the advances now and it has been that way for a very long time. Yet Africa still fails to learn about much of this and fails to apply any of it to any significant degree.

You can turn yourself into a pretzel coming up with theory after theory for why Africa is not more developed than it is today. I'm sure your list would be impressively long. There would be different reasons for the problems in this country and different reasons for the problems in Haiti and different reasons for the problems in Zimbabwe and different reasons for the current decline in South Africa, etc, etc.

But I have ONE theory that explains it all.

- Reel
Where did I get such an idea? I got it from a college class that I took this past summer. It was my anthropology class and that is where I watched the film Guns, Germs, and Steel. For me, that film explained why things in the world are the way they are.

If IQ tests are suppose to test cognative thinking, then did it ever occur to you that nutrition can play a factor. IQ is not genetic. It is relative. The only reason people would ever rely on IQ scores is to put people into categories to say "this race of people are dumb". People are trying to rationalize treating people like crap. I find no rationale for it.

You say that the film does not explain why the differences continue. I have on thing to think about. Africa was prodded on and leached off of more than any other continent for longer. The damage from that is going to take alot of time unless something is done about it.
This is what I learned. The socieities that developed on higher levels were often the societies that developed into states. It was mainly the agricultural societies. Agricultural societies used the plow to cultivate the land. For that you need draft animals such as cows and oxen and they need to be domesticated. Not of those existed in Africa. The zebra couldn't be domesticated because of the hostile environment. Lions constantly chasing after them made for a tempermental animal. With no domesticatable animals, societies in Africa developed according to their environment. There was no settling down to form states in most places. Tribal societies developed according to what they had and what they needed. For this reason, Africa was taken advantage of.
As for your one theory, why not just admit that you think Africa is a lost cause and that you think certain races are inferior? It appears that you think that way.
 
Old 08-24-2009, 12:12 PM
 
742 posts, read 1,048,879 times
Reputation: 345
pirate, word of advice, any sentence that starts with " i learned in a college class" will almost always be dismissed. colleges and in particular their professors have agendas and are KNOWN for indoctrinating their students.
 
Old 08-24-2009, 12:16 PM
 
44,580 posts, read 43,115,486 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcinsov View Post
pirate, word of advice, any sentence that starts with " i learned in a college class" will almost always be dismissed. colleges and in particular their professors have agendas and are KNOWN for indoctrinating their students.
What should I say? I look at alot of the stuff I have learned and to me it makes sense.
 
Old 08-24-2009, 12:24 PM
 
742 posts, read 1,048,879 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
What should I say? I look at alot of the stuff I have learned and to me it makes sense.
i am sure it does, the problem with "knowledge" is that it changes based on how accomplished the orator is.

think of it this way- in academia and in fact most nonfiction writing- the only way to make a name for yourself is to come up with a NEW approach, so you get hundreds maybe thousands of people coming up with insane connections and ideas just to make a name for themselves.

english and history college professors are among the most dishonest and likely to slant views type people you will ever meet. take everything they say with a grain of salt and go research other angles and decide on your own.

let me give u an example- let's say that nutrition is a reason why 3rd worlders are possibly less intelligent. the end result is the same, they are not contributing, and possibly detrimental to western cities.

bear in mind, this is not a moral distinction or even commentary. I do not need to know that a dog was beaten as a pup to know it is violent and killed a child and is a problem
 
Old 08-24-2009, 01:34 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,088,829 times
Reputation: 1814
So here's my hangup...society tells individuals (especially the impoverished) to become educated in order for them to progress. Yet when the education isnt congruent with one school of thought or the other, then we are told that the source of education isnt trustworthy. And therefore the teachings are voided or at minimum, questioned.

So if the sources of "education" arent to be trusted, or are unreliable, then why advocate education as a conduit of potential?

Why not just advocate and REQUIRE only one certain type of education so that we are all on the same page, and misinformation is kept to a minimum?

Often times it seems as though when university scholastics are cited as a source of information/education, then all of a sudden higher learning becomes deemed unreliable, devalued, and taught by more "liberal" professors.

One would think that would be an aspect of the education system that needs to be urgently addressed. Unless those who view it as such have their own bias.

Anywho, thats just always been one of those things I dont understand.
 
Old 08-24-2009, 01:53 PM
 
44,580 posts, read 43,115,486 times
Reputation: 14377
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcinsov View Post
i am sure it does, the problem with "knowledge" is that it changes based on how accomplished the orator is.

think of it this way- in academia and in fact most nonfiction writing- the only way to make a name for yourself is to come up with a NEW approach, so you get hundreds maybe thousands of people coming up with insane connections and ideas just to make a name for themselves.

english and history college professors are among the most dishonest and likely to slant views type people you will ever meet. take everything they say with a grain of salt and go research other angles and decide on your own.

let me give u an example- let's say that nutrition is a reason why 3rd worlders are possibly less intelligent. the end result is the same, they are not contributing, and possibly detrimental to western cities.

bear in mind, this is not a moral distinction or even commentary. I do not need to know that a dog was beaten as a pup to know it is violent and killed a child and is a problem
I am aware that sometimes you need to go and do research for yourself. What is getting me is that there are people out there that believe that certain races are inherently inferior to others. I find this to be a lie based on my own experiences and dealing with the individuals. I have learned the arguments of conflict theory vs. functionalist theory. I also take a moralist approach to certain things. I have done the research for myself and many of the things that I see disturb me in many ways. I see many people write off Africa(not to mention African-Americans in this nation) as a lost cause. I feel insulted when anyone says this. The feeling of insult spurs me on to do the research to find out what is really going on and what has really went on. I always knew that no human was inferior to another. I just needed to prove it to others. That feeling of need to prove it is what spurs me to go to school, to go do the research. After watching the documentary on guns, germs, and steel, I felt like there was finally an explanation to why things were the way they were. I knew race didn't determine a person's behavior. I just needed a way to back it up.
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