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Old 08-29-2009, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Sandpoint, Idaho
1,992 posts, read 2,940,820 times
Reputation: 1792
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcinsov View Post
irony?

anyway my point is, just because proto-humans derived from the land mass
LOL! What irony?

???? The origin of Homo sapien sapien did not spring from inorganic matter. That is mythology not science. Sorry, you would have to be preaching to a particularly believing choir to win converts on that one

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcinsov View Post
that would become africa does not mean humanity is african.
No, I mean precisely that. The biological root of humanity came from Africa. There is just about no scientific doubt on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcinsov View Post
also, prehistoric african land mass humans may or may not have been of dark skin, while certainly they were darker than modern day europeans, there is no reason to believe that homo erectus for instance was black.
Well, actually, you are now quoting from me, as I stated that certain conditions would need to be satisfied for the Africans of 200,000 to be of the same color of today. But...it is substantially more reasonable to assume that the spread of humanity led to a diffusion away from Black than the other way around. But the answer is likely to be found in climate and environmental records.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcinsov View Post
saying humans are all african is like saying all laws are Mesopotamian
??? What on earth are you talking about? What I am saying is precisely that I have stated.

You are treating the biophysics of race as a debatable political or sociological topic. It is not. DNA does not have any interest in any such midguided nonthinking.

However the point is that in terms of DNA, our species originated from Africa roughly 200K years ago...give or take a few 10K years.

Now...if we wish to discuss racial politics, then the shade of skin as a group identifier is fair game.

And for the record, while not all laws are Mesopotamian, many of the legal positions and approaches we now have can be traced to the Code of Hammurabi. I am sure laws, rules governing the behavior of man toward his fellow man, go back many thousand years before Mesopotamia...

S.

 
Old 08-29-2009, 11:51 AM
 
742 posts, read 664,045 times
Reputation: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpointian View Post
LOL! What irony?
what i quoted from you was unintelligible.
 
Old 08-29-2009, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Sandpoint, Idaho
1,992 posts, read 2,940,820 times
Reputation: 1792
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcinsov View Post
what i quoted from you was unintelligible.
amigo,
there is a big difference between a typo or omission than the lack of an argument.

here you go...

P.S. Note that the statement, we are "All African," does not necessarily sit well with a lot of Blacks, either.
 
Old 08-29-2009, 02:58 PM
 
Location: Not where I want to be
1,113 posts, read 1,589,062 times
Reputation: 423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpointian View Post
It is easy to forget about the factor of time.

This is a people that was stripped away from their homes, almost exclusively illiterate and innumerate cultures, over a period of some 200 years. They were enslaved in the US in large numbers, especially toward the end of the slavery system of the South. Forced to live under Jim Crow and appalling immorality, ignorance, and racial hatred on the part of the South and the addition of economic hatred in the Industrial North. Then they undergo repeated lynchings and arson smokeouts for several generations.

Then we reach the 1950s and post-WW2 America and blacks and whites draw the lines in the sand. The assassination of MLK precedes the combination of White flight, White guilt, White resentment, the rise of pocket-stuffing Black Elites and Racial burnouts leading to apathy over the socioeconomic torture chambers of tenement housing in the inner cities. This brings us to 1980.

Before we get into a discussion over contemporary factors, I assure you, resolution of the above would take anywhere from 6-12 generations of consistent investment, positivism and commitment of both Blacks and Non-Blacks. The task is not only to overcome the egregious grievances of the past but to build from scratch something almost completely anew: an identity, a past, a place in modern technical world. It would also take hundreds of millions of $$.

Now, we are back in 1980 and perhaps a little earlier, when the combo of drugs, the virtual disintegration of the Black Family, Black flight of elites, Visceral White guilt, Black Athlete worship, the corporatism of professional sports, the shameful behavior of black males toward fatherhood, and the explosion of teen pregnancies but the most ignorant and economically hopeless of girls, and the tragedy of the faux Black leadership and political charlatans, blood-sucking minorities within the minority, all conspire to sentence millions of American Blacks to as deep a poverty trap as we have ever seen. For those trapped at the worst depths and without the robust family networks from which to draw support and encouragement, it seems near impossible that an exit will appear even in 20 generations. Can you really blame the desperate attempts to "worship" the false gods of sports/TV celebrities or to manufacture the past they never had (Afrocentrism & Egypt) or wish to establish (Kwanzaa)?

Furthermore, all the above conspire to institutionalize the virtual removal of American Blacks from civilized International society and then sentences many other middle class Blacks to the psychological trap of Victimization (as noted in the reference).

Since about 1980, we have seen Black America implode under a complex myriad of factors, conditions that have become increasingly self-inflicted. Tragic.

However, from my POV, to strip away the past would strip away all context, something which in my opinion makes for horrible policy analysis. At the same time, blacks, and by this I mean American blacks, have great need to burn once and for all their bogeymans (say in a ceremonial ritualistic sense): The Man, Victimization, and every legitimate excuse and instead focus on the goshdarn future, regardless if they have the right to howl incessantly at the moon and the origins of their context. They must get on with life!

They must count on themselves and use racial hatred not as tiresome all-purpose excuse, but as motivation to excel in areas thought to be off limits to American Blacks: Math Olympiads, Robotics, Biogenetics, Theoretical Physics, Electrical Engineering, Financial Engineering, mathematical Statistics, Classical Greek or Latin, etc. and eschew the roads of sociology, education, etc. which do not give them the absolute standards they need to shake off the yoke of history.

But all this will take time. These things do not happen overnight. 1964 was just two generations ago. While I wish it were sooner than later (as I not only love and root for the underdog, I have a in-law who is African American with roots in the South), their time will come. And you know, Black America has made so many seminal contributions to our culture and sense of Self and in the most competitive of arenas, I think there is sufficient cause for optimism...

S.
The Jews have experienced the same atrocities (even worse) and they are a productive people, so I don't think you can use this as an excuse. The American Indians were treated even worse (remember the Trail of Tears) and yet they successfully acclimated themselves into society, albeit forced. People define themselves by driving factors. Some people have the discipline to become leaders of society, others do not. Some people take the easy way out (drugs and crime), others find satisfaction in earning a living. Some people like to find excuses to explain deviant behavior, others see it as an opportunity to change.
 
Old 08-29-2009, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Not where I want to be
1,113 posts, read 1,589,062 times
Reputation: 423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks View Post
Ummm... That's not true.

I was involved with a whole group of Southern Sudanese refugees that came to America about 15 years ago. No degrees. No skills. No pedigree.

Even so, the overwhelming majority of them have done remarkably well. In fact, the "man of the house" in the family who moved in next door to us, is now a tenured postal carrier for the USPS.

It's not so much their background as it is their desire to do whatever is necessary to succeed.
So true and I see it everyday.
 
Old 08-29-2009, 03:31 PM
 
Location: The Plains
5,893 posts, read 4,883,791 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind View Post
The Jews have experienced the same atrocities (even worse) and they are a productive people, so I don't think you can use this as an excuse. The American Indians were treated even worse (remember the Trail of Tears) and yet they successfully acclimated themselves into society, albeit forced. People define themselves by driving factors. Some people have the discipline to become leaders of society, others do not. Some people take the easy way out (drugs and crime), others find satisfaction in earning a living. Some people like to find excuses to explain deviant behavior, others see it as an opportunity to change.
I am not sure I would compare Jews and Native Americans with the plight of African Americans ,Jews were not persecuted in American for three hundred years. They are in fact Productive because the United States Military promptly came to deliver them with all due diligence after a relatively short although brutal period. There are roughly six million Jews in the US, and many of them will tell you I'm a "Jew" but not "Jewish" I have known a fare share of people who I knew for quite a while and never knew they were a Jew, not that it mattered, but I always wondered what would it be like if all African Americans could go through life with out anyone knowing that they were an African American?
As far as the Native Americans coming through their ordeal alright, You don't have to spend time on an Indian Reservation to know there is still a lot of work to be done in regards to Americas ongoing poor treatment of them. The isolation and segregation of the Reservation hides this poor treatment from view.
 
Old 08-29-2009, 08:46 PM
 
458 posts, read 508,569 times
Reputation: 262
Ahh, bigotry and racism sound even sweeter when expressed with big words!
 
Old 08-29-2009, 09:05 PM
 
Location: Sandpoint, Idaho
1,992 posts, read 2,940,820 times
Reputation: 1792
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind View Post
The Jews have experienced the same atrocities (even worse) and they are a productive people, so I don't think you can use this as an excuse. The American Indians were treated even worse (remember the Trail of Tears) and yet they successfully acclimated themselves into society, albeit forced. People define themselves by driving factors. Some people have the discipline to become leaders of society, others do not. Some people take the easy way out (drugs and crime), others find satisfaction in earning a living. Some people like to find excuses to explain deviant behavior, others see it as an opportunity to change.
"...so I don't think you can use this as an excuse." What an odd statement! One tries to explain things. Whether such explanations are considered "excuses" is really a function of the psychologies of the excuser and excusee!

Comparisons of the type you are trying to make are really pointless exercises. There is no comparison in the manner you make with your one sentence dismissive. I do not think the treatment of the Jews was "worse," just brutal in a different manner. One group was conquered & divided and then over the centuries victimized by periodic pograms with the Gran Daddy of them all being the Holocaust...The other group was hunted down like animals and treated like animals in a systemic approach to dehumanize. And when freed, effectively excluded from any job and community of wealth and stature. To compare them for the purpose of deciding which experience was worse or fodder for excuses would be a pointless exercise in both futility and stupidity. At the same time, to deny that the past has no relationship on the present is mind-bogglingly naive.

The treatment of the American Indians was indeed horrible, something I pointed out in this thread. Their effective annihilation and the destruction f their culture is a great stain on the history of this country that, much like slavery, and much like the Holocaust is for Europe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind View Post
The American Indians were treated even worse (remember the Trail of Tears) and yet they successfully acclimated themselves into society, albeit forced.
Are you serious? Since when were they successfully acclimated? Most were removed from their homelands and sent to lived "caged" on reservations of the poorest land quality, many of which in environments completely foreign. Acclimated? They are by far the poorest Americans with many communities beset by the evils of the welfare state. Only the Casinos have given them a lifeline Yet even these $$ are largely going to a fraction of the Native Americans who are in the US.


[quote=MrsMtnsOnTheMind;10515632]People define themselves by driving factors. Some people have the discipline to become leaders of society, others do not. Some people take the easy way out (drugs and crime), others find satisfaction in earning a living.
That is true. We need make the best of what we have. However, when the slaves were freed, it was not as if they had lost their jobs and had to toughen up with steely resolve! Please. Largely illiterate and without neither marketable skill nor much of a market to enter, they were not much better off than if they were parentless 12 year-olds, released into society to survive. For such people, your platitudes provide little vision.

Yet over time and with greater access to American society, there are plenty of Blacks that have been afforded the luxury to show their stuff and who have risen to become leaders of society, more, quite frankly, than one might otherwise expect given how Jim Crow and terribly racist laws continued to dampen their potential long after slavery ended.

At the same time, there is a large and growing Black underclass that almost seems beyond hope. Is it the case of taking the "easy way out?" I disagree. Putting your life on the line to join a gang and risk death is not what I would call easy. The gang leader is a leader among men. It would be short-sighted to think otherwise. However, it is leadership that is "locally optimal." They are playing and winning at the wrong game in that it buries their people and communities further into a world with little escape (although rap was one).

You write as if all people have a clean slate and "need to get over it." Again, these are armchair platitudes. We are not talking about Xbox playing upper middle-class suburbanites who "need to get a life." (although this does apply to a small fraction). Here is a community that has spun off into the abyss and is badly in need of a reconstruction around 21st century values rather than allegiances to the Civil Rights generation. Respect to those leaders is one thing, Employing their 1960s-era strategies & tactics is another.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind View Post
Some people like to find excuses to explain deviant behavior, others see it as an opportunity to change.a productive people, so I don't think you can use this as an excuse.
There is the excuse thing again. In terms of public policy, step one is to try and explain the conditions we now observe. Step two is to try and reflect upon those explanations and decide what, if anything to do. and whether things can be done. Step three is to come up with a vision of the future. Step four is to design policies to achieve that vision. The explanations you see as "excuses" exist wholly apart from one's way of dealing with the conditions they face. You should try separating the two.

From the outsiders POV, one wishes to see how explanations are processed by the population in question. Do they use the explanations as excuses or to propel themselves forward? etc. Here, I think modern post-MLK Black America is a work in progess. I think there are plenty examples to be proud of such that race is a afterthought, despite the shining examples having fought through glass barriers and racial prejudgement.

At the same time, there is no question that there is a good number of blacks that have taken actions to see that they remain in the perpetual state of poverty; who squander opportunity and policies offered to help. However, unlike you, I feel that the numbers are quite few. An inner city kid grows up in a state of no hope, without a father, in a crime ridden neighborhood, in a culture where crime means economic survival, it is a miracle that he/she gets out. A miracle. At the same time, it is much harder to explain why the middle class surburban kid with two professional parents fails out of school and heads to buy crack from the inner city dude. I cannot so easily explain their state.

Context remains the most important thing to consider if one really has interest in explaining the state of America's impoverished. But for many in this sound-byte generation of ours, too many prefer one-liner missives or platitudes and equate these words of genius to a serious analysis of why person X is in the sate he/she is in. Sad really, since such behavior truly is inexcusable.

S.
 
Old 08-29-2009, 09:09 PM
 
22 posts, read 28,085 times
Reputation: 29
I shouldn't comment because Im racist and I tend to be white...
Or should it be the other way around?
 
Old 08-29-2009, 09:29 PM
 
Location: Sandpoint, Idaho
1,992 posts, read 2,940,820 times
Reputation: 1792
Explain your "tendency" toward Whiteness. In the choice of food? sport? art appreciation?

Even if you are racist, comment. Get your views aired. Surely your skin would be thick enough.
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