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Old 09-10-2009, 03:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
Per capita, not in raw numbers. I still don't see it as far. Fighting crime along racial lines doesn't help because there are many people who still committ crimes who just get lucky enough not to be that ethnicity, so many people don't get caught.
so are you saying we should have a quota of how many black criminals we let off tthe hook?

 
Old 09-10-2009, 03:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gualm View Post
As far as Gates there is a double standard. There was something I was reading and I believe it was a post on another website. The incident happened around the same time. The man whom was white stated that he was watching a friends house while they were on vacation. This particular time he forgot the key at his home and proceeded to enter the house through the window. The cops were called and he explained what happened. Although he had no proof he lived there, which he obviously would not have had, nor did he mention calling anyone to confirm who he was. He said the cop just said ok and left and he proceeded to do what he was doing. For all the cop knew he could have been a burgular. But the man was trying to make the point that because he was white. They questioned him, believed him and then left. I don't know if you seen the program, I believe it may have been on Tyra or 20/20 abt 2 yrs ago where they had a white family be black for a few days. There was one particular incident in a bar where the wife wanted to order a drink. It was obvious she was being discriminated against and the wife (who was white and painted with brown makeup) admitted to this. There were other incidents also. But, regardless how blatant some of the discrimination was the husband still felt as if nothing was wrong. Denial, denial, denial... There was another one late last year or earlier this year on 20/20 where they actors were in a park both black group and a white group & spray painting a car. They wanted to see how many 911 calls they would receive (these calls were directed to a specific line). They rvcd way more calls abt the black kids then the white ones. Also more people interceded to provide the white kids direction & ask why they were doing this. But what happened during the taping was even more shocking for them. Regular 911 was getting excessive calls because a black man was lying in his car with the seat reclined (is this a crime?). Some even said he was in his car looking as if he was getting ready to do something illegal (how is this possible when the man was laying down and asleep - was he having an out of body experience?). The person in the car was actually one of the fathers of the black actors.

White people always have an excuse to blame racism on something else, the victim, etc rather than for what it is (your beliefs). A racist is like someone who beats his wife but blames it on her and hates it when you call them an abuser. They want to live that way but don't want the label.. So they deny deny deny....and always blame it the victim over exaggerating or they must have done something to cause it.


being white and going to black neighborhoods i get blacks butting in front of me in line (sometimes 3-5 at a time, that didnt even arrive together) at gas stations like its standard practice to butt in front of whitey and if i were to venture out for a night out on the town in the black part of town i would likely be robbed or dead unless i had a black entourage. so for blacks to feel bothered by having to wait for a drink or flag a cab is ridiculous as whites are affected similarly when they go to black areas of town and sometimes never come back without a bullet in them or an empty wallet.

go to my profile and read some of my other posts about people i know that have been robbed or shot only because they ventured into the black part of town to get groceries or for work. in milwaukee here i know more people robbed by black men than i know of milwaukee bucks fans. i know about the same amount of people shot by black men as i know milwaukee bucks fans. and just because there are more calls to the police on more blacks doesnt mean that the blacks are automatically going to jail unless they were committing a crime. me and some friends look at venues to perform and even hang out and my friends just wont deal with anything near the black part of town because a number of bars and clubs have a had a someone shot in or at them in recent memory by a black person. so you are absolutely right there is no reason to be sketchy of black people at all.

i may be a progressive liberal but im also a realist and im not going to smudge the facts just to make myself feel better about the situation cuz thats just gonna let people think that they dont have to take personal responsibility for their actions and standing in life because there are "other forces" holding them back. everybody has an excuse and the last thing they need are more of them. after we get some sort of universal healthcare and better education there are no excuses left.
 
Old 09-10-2009, 06:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks View Post
If somebody pulls a gun and shoots somebody, should he go to jail - regardless of his race?
Yes, regardless of race. But if a person is pulled over for racial reasons, that isn't good. I am not talking about whether or not a person should go to jail for committing heinous crimes, because I agree that if you do something heinous like murder, then you should go to prison regardless of race. What I am talking about is getting pulled over by the police because a cop suspects that because of your race you would be suspected more of doing something bad, in short, applying the acts of a few idiots to everyone who looks like that. Okay, a few blacks are found with drugs on their person, does that mean pull over black motorists simply because they fit the " over all profile" of a drug dealer? No way. Why? What about people of any other race who may be engaged in drug dealing, why not pull them over too? Why blacks more than anyone else? That doesn't sound like fair policing, then again, this nation has never had fair policing. Basically, the message I get is that because I am black, I have to be prepared to be pulled over more and live with the fact I would be suspected more of committing crimes than others. That isn't something I should have to live with. Or even better, that is someone no one of any race should have to live with.
 
Old 09-10-2009, 06:09 PM
 
44,564 posts, read 43,103,689 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcinsov View Post
so are you saying we should have a quota of how many black criminals we let off tthe hook?
No, I am not saying that. I am saying racial profiling doesn't guarantee capturing all of the crooks out there because there are crooks of every ethnicity. If a criminal committs a crime, send the person to prison. I am not talking about letting people off of the hook. I am talking about fair policing. Suspecting that someone would committ a crime simply along the lines of race and color is basically saying "all people of this race are potential criminals". All humans have the potential to committ crimes, why not approach it that way with everyone?
 
Old 09-10-2009, 06:15 PM
 
Location: Houston
3,567 posts, read 3,818,373 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milwaukee City View Post
Again I'm not trolling but just asking a question that other have asked as well, and I never said ALL blacks and Hispanics. I'm just asking why are US ghetto's black or Hispanic and not Asian or Indian or polish.



First Off use Spell Check! I'm not ignorant!!! this questions has been posed by many sociology professors and "intellectual" types for years I have taken several classes about this and was just wondering if anyone had any other observations or theories to why some ethnic groups progress more than other ethnic groups. Why don't you see Asian hood's or Indian hoods in every city. Then compare drop out rates and teen birth rates among theses groups. just wondering why blacks seem to be number one and Hispanics number two and I know there are more blacks and Hispanics than Asians. I also believe being poor is no excuse for crime, I was poor and raised in a very poor area and most of my Puerto Rican friends never been to jail and we were all poor but I can't say the same for my black friends.
We do have very strict immigration laws. That's something many people do not know. They just assume that they are soft because there are so many illegals here. Illegal immigrants don't have any education. You won't see well educated Mexicans coming here illegally.. Barely any education just equals poor. Those who come here legally ( Indians, Asians, Europeans) have visas that requires them to have a College degree ( HB1 Visa would be one example).
Just wanted to add that.
 
Old 09-11-2009, 05:28 AM
 
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another thing i was thinking about is how, as far as i can tell, blacks dont have those types of ethnic shops and stores associated with other races. like thai restaurants and asian grocery stores and mexican restaurants and grocery stores. to some extent there are african american centered themes at a store here or there but i dont think that really even speaks to half the black population as being something their own. i think american blacks are searching for their own identity which is why rap and hip hop with their "outsider on the fringe" attitude goes over so well. its just too bad most of it is self centered and shallow and most are afraid to say what they really think about the hoodlums and the crime for fear of being killed by gangs or they are a part of it. things are changing for the rap/hip hop music scene though and at least one really big artist (jay z) is pointing people to alternative and underground rap music for different messages.

i was gonna say more but its too early for me. im going back to bed
 
Old 09-11-2009, 09:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phreak9 View Post
another thing i was thinking about is how, as far as i can tell, blacks dont have those types of ethnic shops and stores associated with other races. like thai restaurants and asian grocery stores and mexican restaurants and grocery stores. to some extent there are african american centered themes at a store here or there but i dont think that really even speaks to half the black population as being something their own. i think american blacks are searching for their own identity which is why rap and hip hop with their "outsider on the fringe" attitude goes over so well. its just too bad most of it is self centered and shallow and most are afraid to say what they really think about the hoodlums and the crime for fear of being killed by gangs or they are a part of it. things are changing for the rap/hip hop music scene though and at least one really big artist (jay z) is pointing people to alternative and underground rap music for different messages.

i was gonna say more but its too early for me. im going back to bed
this is just getting crazy imo...Ive sat back for a while now and watched people list the most important things that the black race, particularly, has NOT done...

and for the most part, while true, those things literally correlate directly with the same things that I and others have cited as results of slavery/post slavery inequities IN THIS COUNTRY. -- [being stripped of an identity] [for generations being disallowed to naturally form and proliferate cultural customs and family coalescence, which is vital for forming those small MOM & POP restaurants and shops, and maintaining communal wealth] [being disallowed to properly participate in equal education, thereby ingraining a cultural deemphasis on education into its community] [inarticulation and the language barriers stemming from multiple generations of prohibition of learning to read, write, yet being required to discontinue their native tongue and learn english.] [the instillation of a criminal culture stemming from poverty in conjunction with a concerted govt. effort to introduce the drug trade into inner city neighborhoods (which happen to contain a high concentration of African Americans)]

There are many others that have been said in this thread. But because they were written within the context of exalting Asian and/or European American culture or within the context of "giving advice" to African Americans while contrasting their shortcomings with the successes of Asian and white cultures in this country, those same vital aspects of building successful culture are not deemed 'excuses' when stated within those contexts..

However when someone offers those SAME exact setbacks that blacks have faced, as rationale for the lagging cultural progress of blacks, then those setbacks are dismissed and termed as 'excuses'...

Once they arrived, it took the Europeans longer than 50 years of their established culture and opportunity, to produce a viable territory to occupy, which today we recognize as a nation...they were as lawless as any other ethnicity before they attained power here..

so what makes us think that after 300 years of outright repugnant treatment in the SAME country which African Americans are expected to succeed and 50 years of a few govt. programs, blacks could be progressing at anywhere near the same rate as whites or other willful immigrants? -- yes even Africans

The Black cultural experience simply does not compare with ANY other immigrant group in this nation. Im not speaking about genocides or what every other culture has endured back in their ethnic homeland for generations; at which point they decided to seek refuge in America. I'm speaking to the fact that no other immigrant group has endured the same experiences as African Americans in this country, for multiple generations. (except for perhaps the Native American.. which as I continue to say: no one asks why they arent succeeding; for the most part we all know why)

[notice how almost ALL ethnic groups are able flee from the source of generations of their oppression, to the United States in order to make a FRESH start] [contrarily, the African Americans have actually been oppressed for multiple generations within the 'promised land'; there is no fresh start] ...(I know, I know -- supposedly they could 'flee' back to africa...OR Europe, God forbid!..lol..j/k but unfortunately Africa has been pillaged as well)

Again, this is not intended as a surreptitious guilt trip on "whitey" as some keep saying..lol...because unbeknownst to some, technically, whites have been slaves as well (though not in America)...and every culture participated in the slave trade anyway...

so despite the fact that any mention of slavery will usually be interpreted as an attempted exhoneration of the conduct of some present day blacks and/or an attempted slight at "whitey" lol,,, (that term cracks me up). Its acknowledgment is not for the purpose of loathing, or shaming "whitey".
much the same way that for some reason most blacks are offended by any semblance of the Confederate Flag when it is not necessarily intended to be a slight to their culture.

And I understand that in the human culture, and historically "5hit happens"...

what I dont understand is why that philosophy is really only plausible as the explanation for the cultural exploits of European American culture. Yet the same philosophy falls short when we apply it to explain away the ineptitude of the African American culture in this country...then all of a sudden one group is just inherently incapable of civility, and apparently 5hit doesnt just happen. Is it really too much to ask for us all to strive for consistency in some form?

At any rate this was a provocative question to begin with, so the answer will likely be, well -- provocative by all accounts.
 
Old 09-11-2009, 12:36 PM
 
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3 paragraphs and nothing said.
 
Old 09-11-2009, 12:51 PM
 
44,564 posts, read 43,103,689 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire View Post
this is just getting crazy imo...Ive sat back for a while now and watched people list the most important things that the black race, particularly, has NOT done...

and for the most part, while true, those things literally correlate directly with the same things that I and others have cited as results of slavery/post slavery inequities IN THIS COUNTRY. -- [being stripped of an identity] [for generations being disallowed to naturally form and proliferate cultural customs and family coalescence, which is vital for forming those small MOM & POP restaurants and shops, and maintaining communal wealth] [being disallowed to properly participate in equal education, thereby ingraining a cultural deemphasis on education into its community] [inarticulation and the language barriers stemming from multiple generations of prohibition of learning to read, write, yet being required to discontinue their native tongue and learn english.] [the instillation of a criminal culture stemming from poverty in conjunction with a concerted govt. effort to introduce the drug trade into inner city neighborhoods (which happen to contain a high concentration of African Americans)]

There are many others that have been said in this thread. But because they were written within the context of exalting Asian and/or European American culture or within the context of "giving advice" to African Americans while contrasting their shortcomings with the successes of Asian and white cultures in this country, those same vital aspects of building successful culture are not deemed 'excuses' when stated within those contexts..

However when someone offers those SAME exact setbacks that blacks have faced, as rationale for the lagging cultural progress of blacks, then those setbacks are dismissed and termed as 'excuses'...

Once they arrived, it took the Europeans longer than 50 years of their established culture and opportunity, to produce a viable territory to occupy, which today we recognize as a nation...they were as lawless as any other ethnicity before they attained power here..

so what makes us think that after 300 years of outright repugnant treatment in the SAME country which African Americans are expected to succeed and 50 years of a few govt. programs, blacks could be progressing at anywhere near the same rate as whites or other willful immigrants? -- yes even Africans

The Black cultural experience simply does not compare with ANY other immigrant group in this nation. Im not speaking about genocides or what every other culture has endured back in their ethnic homeland for generations; at which point they decided to seek refuge in America. I'm speaking to the fact that no other immigrant group has endured the same experiences as African Americans in this country, for multiple generations. (except for perhaps the Native American.. which as I continue to say: no one asks why they arent succeeding; for the most part we all know why)

[notice how almost ALL ethnic groups are able flee from the source of generations of their oppression, to the United States in order to make a FRESH start] [contrarily, the African Americans have actually been oppressed for multiple generations within the 'promised land'; there is no fresh start] ...(I know, I know -- supposedly they could 'flee' back to africa...OR Europe, God forbid!..lol..j/k but unfortunately Africa has been pillaged as well)

Again, this is not intended as a surreptitious guilt trip on "whitey" as some keep saying..lol...because unbeknownst to some, technically, whites have been slaves as well (though not in America)...and every culture participated in the slave trade anyway...

so despite the fact that any mention of slavery will usually be interpreted as an attempted exhoneration of the conduct of some present day blacks and/or an attempted slight at "whitey" lol,,, (that term cracks me up). Its acknowledgment is not for the purpose of loathing, or shaming "whitey".
much the same way that for some reason most blacks are offended by any semblance of the Confederate Flag when it is not necessarily intended to be a slight to their culture.

And I understand that in the human culture, and historically "5hit happens"...

what I dont understand is why that philosophy is really only plausible as the explanation for the cultural exploits of European American culture. Yet the same philosophy falls short when we apply it to explain away the ineptitude of the African American culture in this country...then all of a sudden one group is just inherently incapable of civility, and apparently 5hit doesnt just happen. Is it really too much to ask for us all to strive for consistency in some form?

At any rate this was a provocative question to begin with, so the answer will likely be, well -- provocative by all accounts.
As I read this statement, it seems easy for me to agree, but it is more than that too. African-Americans are not the only ethnic group to come to this nation and become subjected to severe mistreatment. The difference between how and why African-Americans got here vs. other ethnic groups getting here, well, that is where the differences start. That we both can agree on. Most other ethnic groups came here to escape conditions in their old homeland and came here for something better. With African-Americans, their forebears came here for the opposite reason. It wasn't to look for gold, to find opportunities, but as slaves with no choice in the matter, no reason to come. Generations of abuse in a land that was suppose to be the "promised land", are still evident today. Where did the hip-hop culture come from? It came from the experiences of African-Americans living in the urban ghettos. You made some very good points. You also make another good point. Stating these facts should not be intended to "cause a guilt trip" for white people in America. In fact, Tim Wise said something in a speech a few days ago. He said that white people in America today aren't at fault for where people of color are today, but rather, the beneficiaries and collateral damage of it. He likened it to a gumbo stew a roommate of his made. It sat on the stove for a day or two and it began to smell bad. Other people decided to pretend the smell wasn't there, but Tim had to live with it. That is how the Black experience in America has been. What we see today is the legacy of generations of abuse. According to Wise, white people in contemporary America didn't cause it, but themselves, as well as everyone else, should do something to reverse the legacy of slavery and racism in the USA, to make things better, not because it is the right thing to do, but because we are the only ones left and the stench is still there. That is how I see it. It isn't just people of color who have suffered. Where did the concept of being white come from? It came from the colonists who were afraid of rebellions from the poor, indentured European servant population and the African slave population. What did the people in charge do? Invent the concept of "whiteness", telling the indentured servants that they had more in common with the wealthy colonists than they did with the African slaves. This was done after Bacon's Rebellion. The same was done during the Civil War. When it finally came down to the final decision to secede, the elites said that they were prepared to secede to keep slavery and expand it to the western territories, and for no other reason. They weren't going to fight though. How did they get poor, white people, who didn't own slaves, to fight for the Confederacy, knowing there was nothing to gain from it? The elite slave owners manage to convince the poor white population that the slaves were going to cause problems for them. There were other issues such as tarrifs and issues with selling goods, but slavery was a big issue.

You mentioned something about Africa being pillaged. I thought about this. Some people have made comments telling blacks to "go back to Africa". I think about this: How could blacks in American go back to Africa, generations and generations out of Africa, not knowing what ethnic group they came from or speaking the language. One of the biggest horrors of slavery is the fact that the native culture was stripped away for the most part. I don't even know my specific ethnic group. For all I know I could be related to one of my Nigerian friends and not even know it, or even Kwame Nkrumah and never have know. I don't know. When my ancestors were brought here, all ties from Africa were cut off involuntarily. With Chinese people, there is China, for Mexicans, there is Mexico, for people of Swedish, Polish, German, and Italian descent, there is Sweden, Poland, Germany, and Italy. For Americans of Dutch descent, there is The Netherlands. For African-Americans, there really isn't anything. I can't go to my ancestral village because I wouldn't know where it is. At least for the immigrants who came here, there were records kept at Ellis Island or Angel Island. The legacy of slavery is still there, it is just many people won't admit it. If you don't admit it, you can't do anything about it. Slavery, the concept of "whiteness", all of it is a form of control in one form or another. All of it was used to keep some people down because in order to have a society with the super rich, a society has to have the "have-nots". That Horatio Alger definition of "pulling ones self up by their bootstraps", well I am very cynical towards it. I know in order for me to graduate from college, I have to work hard. I am just cynical about other things in life.
 
Old 09-11-2009, 05:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
As I read this statement, it seems easy for me to agree, but it is more than that too. African-Americans are not the only ethnic group to come to this nation and become subjected to severe mistreatment. The difference between how and why African-Americans got here vs. other ethnic groups getting here, well, that is where the differences start. That we both can agree on. Most other ethnic groups came here to escape conditions in their old homeland and came here for something better. With African-Americans, their forebears came here for the opposite reason. It wasn't to look for gold, to find opportunities, but as slaves with no choice in the matter, no reason to come. Generations of abuse in a land that was suppose to be the "promised land", are still evident today. Where did the hip-hop culture come from? It came from the experiences of African-Americans living in the urban ghettos. You made some very good points. You also make another good point. Stating these facts should not be intended to "cause a guilt trip" for white people in America. In fact, Tim Wise said something in a speech a few days ago. He said that white people in America today aren't at fault for where people of color are today, but rather, the beneficiaries and collateral damage of it. He likened it to a gumbo stew a roommate of his made. It sat on the stove for a day or two and it began to smell bad. Other people decided to pretend the smell wasn't there, but Tim had to live with it. That is how the Black experience in America has been. What we see today is the legacy of generations of abuse. According to Wise, white people in contemporary America didn't cause it, but themselves, as well as everyone else, should do something to reverse the legacy of slavery and racism in the USA, to make things better, not because it is the right thing to do, but because we are the only ones left and the stench is still there. That is how I see it. It isn't just people of color who have suffered. Where did the concept of being white come from? It came from the colonists who were afraid of rebellions from the poor, indentured European servant population and the African slave population. What did the people in charge do? Invent the concept of "whiteness", telling the indentured servants that they had more in common with the wealthy colonists than they did with the African slaves. This was done after Bacon's Rebellion. The same was done during the Civil War. When it finally came down to the final decision to secede, the elites said that they were prepared to secede to keep slavery and expand it to the western territories, and for no other reason. They weren't going to fight though. How did they get poor, white people, who didn't own slaves, to fight for the Confederacy, knowing there was nothing to gain from it? The elite slave owners manage to convince the poor white population that the slaves were going to cause problems for them. There were other issues such as tarrifs and issues with selling goods, but slavery was a big issue.

You mentioned something about Africa being pillaged. I thought about this. Some people have made comments telling blacks to "go back to Africa". I think about this: How could blacks in American go back to Africa, generations and generations out of Africa, not knowing what ethnic group they came from or speaking the language. One of the biggest horrors of slavery is the fact that the native culture was stripped away for the most part. I don't even know my specific ethnic group. For all I know I could be related to one of my Nigerian friends and not even know it, or even Kwame Nkrumah and never have know. I don't know. When my ancestors were brought here, all ties from Africa were cut off involuntarily. With Chinese people, there is China, for Mexicans, there is Mexico, for people of Swedish, Polish, German, and Italian descent, there is Sweden, Poland, Germany, and Italy. For Americans of Dutch descent, there is The Netherlands. For African-Americans, there really isn't anything. I can't go to my ancestral village because I wouldn't know where it is. At least for the immigrants who came here, there were records kept at Ellis Island or Angel Island. The legacy of slavery is still there, it is just many people won't admit it. If you don't admit it, you can't do anything about it. Slavery, the concept of "whiteness", all of it is a form of control in one form or another. All of it was used to keep some people down because in order to have a society with the super rich, a society has to have the "have-nots". That Horatio Alger definition of "pulling ones self up by their bootstraps", well I am very cynical towards it. I know in order for me to graduate from college, I have to work hard. I am just cynical about other things in life.

All of your points resonate very clearly with me. I agree that the idea of "race" was primarily a concept promoted by colonists of European origin. I also agree with your assertion that present day "whites" are more beneficiaries of past inequalities, than the direct perpetrators of it. Being such, is no more of a crime than one being the offspring of an illegal immigrant to this country. While, the child may not have immigrated illegally, he/she directly benefits from his/her parents' crime. While one cant expect the child to feel guilty for the actions of his parents, it would be an indisputable fact that the acts of his forbears directly manifested his current situation.

Regarding the comment referencing the 'go back to Africa' mantra...I completely agree that the severed ties of African Americans to their native land is both irrefutably detrimental to their cultural identity, and is an impediment to the progress of the black community. As I stated before, family bonds and traditions, cultural customs, and shared language are the lifeblood of any culture. When those aspects of culture are removed and/or denied FOR GENERATIONS, then familial responsibility/sacredness, cultural identity, and education are all woefully impacted. And communal wealth/enterprise within the community become nearly impossible to generate.

And sadly even if blacks COULD go back to Africa, though they wouldnt know where to begin due to absent ties to their homeland, the continent has already been raped. It's quite easy to suggest that we ship them back, AFTER this nation has exploited, and pillaged the people and the land.

Lastly, Im glad you were able to correctly interpret what I was trying to convey when I commented on immigrants escaping their homelands to America; in contrast to the way blacks arrived here and the ensuing mistreatment. Their cultural experience in this country, and the length thereof, is quite simply unique.
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