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Old 05-15-2009, 04:37 AM
 
943 posts, read 2,706,331 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eduardo983 View Post
Hispanic is not a race. Hispanics could be Eurowhite, Brown, Black, Indian, Arab, or Asian.
When people think of Hispanic for this argument they think of the dark skinned people from south of the border who have a large amount of Indian blood/ancestry. They are the people who define themselves as Hispanic and speak English only when absolutely necessary and believe that Illegal Aliens should be allowed to stay. They subscribe to the Indian/Hispanic cultural norms. These are not white European looking people from Chile.

 
Old 05-15-2009, 05:29 AM
 
Location: N of citrus, S of decent corn
34,531 posts, read 42,708,506 times
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In general, the Asians and Indians who come here are not the poor people from those countries, they're the privileged ones whose families can afford to send them here to go to school. In those cultures, doing badly in school is not an option.
The blacks and hispanics who came were the poor and disadvantaged who weren't able to go to college until a generation or two after they got here.
 
Old 05-15-2009, 07:02 AM
 
943 posts, read 2,706,331 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gentlearts View Post
In general, the Asians and Indians who come here are not the poor people from those countries, they're the privileged ones whose families can afford to send them here to go to school. In those cultures, doing badly in school is not an option.
The blacks and hispanics who came were the poor and disadvantaged who weren't able to go to college until a generation or two after they got here.

I think there is some truth to that statment. I saw some incredibly poor Chinese people the other day. They looked like they had just came off the container ship that they had stowed away in. They were so different than the hard working polished Chinese immigrants we usually see around here. These Chinese were swearing and spitting and generally uncouth. They reminded me of the possibly typical Chinese we would see in the poor rural parts of the country.
 
Old 05-15-2009, 07:46 AM
miu
 
Location: MA/NH
16,469 posts, read 33,418,786 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gentlearts View Post
In general, the Asians and Indians who come here are not the poor people from those countries, they're the privileged ones whose families can afford to send them here to go to school. In those cultures, doing badly in school is not an option.
There are many uneducated poor Asians that do come the US. They can be found in hotels working in the housekeeping departments and also Asian markets and, restaurants.
Quote:
The blacks and hispanics who came were the poor and disadvantaged who weren't able to go to college until a generation or two after they got here.
true. And they got to go to college because their whole families were focused on the goal of bettering the fortunes of their future generations. And they did it by working two jobs at once and saving their money, not spending it on luxuries they didn't need and making sure their kids went to school and did well there.

The Chinese are very driven to investing in their future generations. Last year, there was a tragedy in Ohio where a drunk driver killed three foreign Chinese students in a car. Their parents had borrowed money from other relatives in China to pay for their US education. The plan was for the children to do well in school and get a well paying career to pay off their debts. But with the kids dead, the three sets of parents have no way to pay off what they owe because they don't make very much money themselves. And the drunk driver had no assets to sue for. So these parents are left with the sadness of their only kids dying and knowing that they will be working for the rest of their lives, not having a retirement, and with no future generations in their family.
 
Old 05-15-2009, 08:08 AM
 
Location: Bayou City
2,991 posts, read 4,468,958 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire View Post
I agree that the racial/religious inequities are unfortunate whether imposed upon blacks, Jews, Indians or white people. I also agree that at some point blacks simply have to move on..But what I dont agree with is the complete decontextualization of the circumstances that African Americans are in..thats my only grievance, but I wholeheartedly agree that the time for excuses (even those excuses that are well warranted) is over.

But I actually had a Jewish coworker of mine describe that disparity to me best.

As he put it "People will dismiss me as a regular caucasian long before they dismiss a person of color as a mainstream American..because I dont have a huge stamp that says Jew on my forehead." I found this to be a bit humorous, and at the same time true. Im not sure of its real significance yet but the mere fact that he feels that at anytime he can merge into the mainstream majority culture, conveyed to me that as a Jew he can (if he so chooses) traverse a less hostile course in his life.

But that notwithstanding, I cant really comment on the Biblical plight of Jews, but if we are paralleling the perils of American Jews or even those who underwent persecution in Nazi Germany, with that of blacks --

Then one discrepancy I see and one that I really think continues to be overlooked, is that Black Americans 1) While both Jews and blacks had families disintegrated, the disintegration of black families was: A) systematic, B) occurred over multiple generations...Jews for the most part can trace much of their lineage. American blacks are truly a culture without a home. Until extremely recently, American blacks could not open up a lockbox and show their children where they came from. They were unable to share with their children the customs of their families (for example. hypothetically -- "This is what us O'Mally men do. Son, the O'Mallys attend Brown University..your great grandfather did, your grandfather did, I did, and so you will)...that actually does matter as it sets a level of familial expectation and establishes an environment of pressure to achieve...

B) Secondly blacks in this country were not only discouraged from education (much less the maths and sciences) but they were left with few other options than to perform in vaudeville minstrel shows (or as we would call it today: BET)...while entertaining, it was also during the emergence of picture shows and mass media distribution in this country. The images of blacks portrayed by this country's media (which blacks did not control) only reiterated what other ethnicities wanted to believe. This, combined with the prevailing logic of the day being "well thats just their disposition" "thats just the way they are" -- (and we need not think that this insular perspective was not overwhelmingly held by CEO's and Politicians of the day, who possessed powers to appoint certain people to positions of authority and prosperity) -- without accounting for the lack of other viable channels of generating revenue for blacks...contributed to a repugnant image that has been the scarlett letter of blacks to this day.

Its similar to the reason women overwhelmingly worked as seamstresses and maids and housekeepers in that day. They took the jobs they were allowed to get. And until the advent of the modern woman that had become the identity of women in general. As most know, a black woman invented the ironing board. Hmmm now why could this be? Perhaps because in her occupation she sought an easier way to press fabrics; most likely as a maid or housekeeper.

Likewise, as blacks attempted to provide for their families and the most streamlined route to do so for blacks of the day was inarguably through entertainment (minstrel shows, self deprecation, athletics etc.) they took and became masters of the skills that would allow them to feed their families. NOT education, accounting, math, etc. So my point is, traditionally in this country as a minority, you get good at what you are allowed to do.

However I havent seen a negative Jewish stereotype in the media...there may be one, but I havent seen it. And its not because foolish Jews dont exist. But they havent had to contend with a long held negative preconception of them whilst trying to assimilate into the mainstream.

Furthermore, blacks were deliberately played against one another (you know, the whole house slave/overseer vs. field slave dynamic) creating turmoil within an already tumultuous experience. which continues to plague

One other thing that I think acts as a partition between the Jewish and the African American experience in this country is the drug culture. During the Harlem Renaissance black intellectualism and civility bridaled that of any other ethnic group. However the induction of heroin and later crack (some propose that the crack epidemic was undoubtedly govt. sponsored, and from what Ive read, I cant say I have much reason to disagree yet) into predominately black communities, thereby creating a culture of dependency on an illegal substance within an already fractured segment of the population, leaves little doubt in my mind personally that these and other factors have contributed to the counterproductivity of the black community.

These are more or less differences in experiences, however I cant explain why these aspects of our society were instituted. But they ARE part of the infrastructure of what we recognize as our society today.

Thats just me tho.
I'm not usually one inclined to public reps, but I've got to give credit where credit is due. Superb analysis.
 
Old 05-15-2009, 09:36 AM
 
985 posts, read 3,189,850 times
Reputation: 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire View Post
I agree that the racial/religious inequities are unfortunate whether imposed upon blacks, Jews, Indians or white people. I also agree that at some point blacks simply have to move on..But what I dont agree with is the complete decontextualization of the circumstances that African Americans are in..thats my only grievance, but I wholeheartedly agree that the time for excuses (even those excuses that are well warranted) is over.

But I actually had a Jewish coworker of mine describe that disparity to me best.

As he put it "People will dismiss me as a regular caucasian long before they dismiss a person of color as a mainstream American..because I dont have a huge stamp that says Jew on my forehead." I found this to be a bit humorous, and at the same time true. Im not sure of its real significance yet but the mere fact that he feels that at anytime he can merge into the mainstream majority culture, conveyed to me that as a Jew he can (if he so chooses) traverse a less hostile course in his life.

But that notwithstanding, I cant really comment on the Biblical plight of Jews, but if we are paralleling the perils of American Jews or even those who underwent persecution in Nazi Germany, with that of blacks --

Then one discrepancy I see and one that I really think continues to be overlooked, is that Black Americans 1) While both Jews and blacks had families disintegrated, the disintegration of black families was: A) systematic, B) occurred over multiple generations...Jews for the most part can trace much of their lineage. American blacks are truly a culture without a home. Until extremely recently, American blacks could not open up a lockbox and show their children where they came from. They were unable to share with their children the customs of their families (for example. hypothetically -- "This is what us O'Mally men do. Son, the O'Mallys attend Brown University..your great grandfather did, your grandfather did, I did, and so you will)...that actually does matter as it sets a level of familial expectation and establishes an environment of pressure to achieve...

B) Secondly blacks in this country were not only discouraged from education (much less the maths and sciences) but they were left with few other options than to perform in vaudeville minstrel shows (or as we would call it today: BET)...while entertaining, it was also during the emergence of picture shows and mass media distribution in this country. The images of blacks portrayed by this country's media (which blacks did not control) only reiterated what other ethnicities wanted to believe. This, combined with the prevailing logic of the day being "well thats just their disposition" "thats just the way they are" -- (and we need not think that this insular perspective was not overwhelmingly held by CEO's and Politicians of the day, who possessed powers to appoint certain people to positions of authority and prosperity) -- without accounting for the lack of other viable channels of generating revenue for blacks...contributed to a repugnant image that has been the scarlett letter of blacks to this day.

Its similar to the reason women overwhelmingly worked as seamstresses and maids and housekeepers in that day. They took the jobs they were allowed to get. And until the advent of the modern woman that had become the identity of women in general. As most know, a black woman invented the ironing board. Hmmm now why could this be? Perhaps because in her occupation she sought an easier way to press fabrics; most likely as a maid or housekeeper.

Likewise, as blacks attempted to provide for their families and the most streamlined route to do so for blacks of the day was inarguably through entertainment (minstrel shows, self deprecation, athletics etc.) they took and became masters of the skills that would allow them to feed their families. NOT education, accounting, math, etc. So my point is, traditionally in this country as a minority, you get good at what you are allowed to do.

However I havent seen a negative Jewish stereotype in the media...there may be one, but I havent seen it. And its not because foolish Jews dont exist. But they havent had to contend with a long held negative preconception of them whilst trying to assimilate into the mainstream.

Furthermore, blacks were deliberately played against one another (you know, the whole house slave/overseer vs. field slave dynamic) creating turmoil within an already tumultuous experience. which continues to plague

One other thing that I think acts as a partition between the Jewish and the African American experience in this country is the drug culture. During the Harlem Renaissance black intellectualism and civility bridaled that of any other ethnic group. However the induction of heroin and later crack (some propose that the crack epidemic was undoubtedly govt. sponsored, and from what Ive read, I cant say I have much reason to disagree yet) into predominately black communities, thereby creating a culture of dependency on an illegal substance within an already fractured segment of the population, leaves little doubt in my mind personally that these and other factors have contributed to the counterproductivity of the black community.

These are more or less differences in experiences, however I cant explain why these aspects of our society were instituted. But they ARE part of the infrastructure of what we recognize as our society today.

Thats just me tho.
Public rep from me too!
 
Old 05-15-2009, 09:50 AM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,087,903 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miu View Post
Mostly in the South, and actually once in RI in a rural area, have I heard the term Jew used as a verb... as in, "can I Jew you down?" And that's coming presumably from white christians. And the negative Jewish stereotype type in the media is a Jew being a Shylock, being cheap, also lending money at an unseemly high interest rate, having a big nose with a crook in it. Living in a metro Northeast region of the US, there is a large population of Jewish people, and one doesn't usually see any overt anti-Semitism. However, in areas where there aren't as many Jews like the South, no one thinks anything of using the term Jew as a verb.
I accept this assertion. And really, I usually dislike and even avoid getting into the competition of comparing ethnic hardships...as I relayed earlier, I think discrimination against people in general is wrong..but, I cant really say the comparison of negative perception has absolute cogency in this context...and considering that Jews now effectively have a profound influence in the media, if there were negative perceptions of them in the media, (no offense intended here) but it would be ill advised of them to continue to propagate those stereotypes, or at least not work in some capacity to counter them in a massive media, that some say, they continue to maintain control over.

I mean, we are saying that Jews dont lend money, and they are cheap and aspersions are cast upon them for having "big noses with a crook in it" [not my words]...but those stereotypes, while unfortunate didnt, to my knowledge (and I always appreciate enlightenment on issues such as this) didnt prohibit them from owning land, owning a patent, obtaining grants, or engaging in civil litigation among other things... these are TREMENDOUS injustices, that would place any demographic who was already a financially disadvantaged underclass at an near insurmountable disadvantage...In my opinion the fact that there was a managed institutionalization of the suppression of Black progressiveness, literally puts their experience in a league of its own.

The problem I see with the African American experience in this country isnt really slavery...aside from the disintegration of families slavery here (though far more brutal here than elsewhere) slavery just was what slavery was..Thats to say that it was merely forced servitude.

But the disintegration of families is crippling in itself, especially when native language and culture are forcibly excised...

But the main malfeasance American Blacks faced against them was upon their release was, the enactment of, or the commencement of, Jim Crow laws and the Black Codes and the unwritten expectation of deferrence to the majority culture for their cultural expectations. I feel that those played the largest role in the near demise of American Blacks, not necessarily slavery.

I mean, it would be really interesting to see any ethnicity of people be held in captivity, (ok thats happened to several cultures other than blacks, I get that.. Im just acknowledging its occurrence here), families torn asunder, forcibly excised of their native language and culture, yet prohibited from learning and fully integrating into the new culture [i.e. getting a formal education] in a climate where formal education is essential and expected...-- have that group be released from that captivity with no education, and unequal access to obtaining an education, unable to obtain loans (you know the kind that allows us to start businesses, and send our children to college and such..), unable to obtain patents (no incentive to invent anything if you cant even obtain a patent/get credit for inventing it) etc.........

p.s. the military wasnt much of a long term option as 9 times out of 10 you were sent to slaughter on the front lines to absorb bullets, or stuck in the mess hall as a cook. That was literally as high in the ranks, and as much skill, as Black Americans were going to attain through the military, even up until the late 1940's.

It would be interesting if someone were to conduct a sort of microcosmic study using a control group who experiences minimal inequities, and a suppressed group of subjects under similar historical circumstances as American blacks, and I think it would be interesting to see the toll that those grievances take on that group over a span of multiple generations.


Jews were allowed to continue speaking Hebrew if they so chose, excoriated for it though they may be. Their language (read: a huge part of communication, organizing, and education) was not forcibly excised from their culture.. Again if they so chose they were allowed to collude and maintain familial ties here in the U.S., almost seamlessly.

But Im not going to get too pedantic with it here, I really dislike going tit for tat with the woe-is-me discourse...so I just say we all need to do better.

Last edited by solytaire; 05-15-2009 at 11:01 AM..
 
Old 05-15-2009, 09:53 AM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,087,903 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutre View Post
Public rep from me too!
Thank you and thanks to MrSykes as well...just enjoying the exchange of ideas.
 
Old 05-15-2009, 11:37 AM
 
4,990 posts, read 4,453,373 times
Reputation: 1472
Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire View Post
The problem I see with the African American experience in this country isnt really slavery...aside from the disintegration of families slavery here (though far more brutal here than elsewhere) slavery just was what slavery was..Thats to say that it was merely forced servitude.

But the disintegration of families is crippling in itself, especially when native language and culture are forcibly excised...

But the main malfeasance American Blacks faced against them was upon their release was, the enactment of, or the commencement of, Jim Crow laws and the Black Codes and the unwritten expectation of deferrence to the majority culture for their cultural expectations. I feel that those played the largest role in the near demise of American Blacks, not necessarily slavery.
I agree with your points but I a lot of the problems among inner city blacks are largely the result of the crack epidemic of the 80's and 90's. The violence associated with crack, the guns, the addiction, the record number of young men incarcerated, the breakup of families and communities and the culture which developed out of all that is what explains why the inner city is so undeveloped.

Incarceration and gentrification is not the answer. I think with the administrations' new drug and urban czars along with the selection of Van Jones for developing green collar jobs, the move to expand internet access, this country can finally remove this blemish on our society.
 
Old 05-15-2009, 11:47 AM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,087,903 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert View Post
I agree with your points but I a lot of the problems among inner city blacks are largely the result of the crack epidemic of the 80's and 90's. The violence associated with crack, the guns, the addiction, the record number of young men incarcerated, the breakup of families and communities and the culture which developed out of all that is what explains why the inner city is so undeveloped.

Incarceration and gentrification is not the answer. I think with the administrations' new drug and urban czars along with the selection of Van Jones for developing green collar jobs, the move to expand internet access, this country can finally remove this blemish on our society.
Totally agree...I think the crack epidemic played a hugely integral role in both black males availing themselves of a heretofore lucrative (if illegal and deadly) source of income..and in altering the mentality of black women who perceived these males/future inmates as "providers" and viable suitors. And thats not to make light of the dependency, addiction, and impaired judgment that resulted in highly concentrated predominately black enclaves.

The crack trade (and heroin addiction) was an overbearing problem as it relates to the counter-productivity of what the Civil Rights Era had began establishing.

Last edited by solytaire; 05-15-2009 at 12:07 PM..
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