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Old 05-15-2009, 07:38 PM
 
3,277 posts, read 4,508,842 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XXclimberX View Post
You do realize the Roman empire fell thousands of years ago right? The ramifications of roman slavery lasted for hundreds of years. The people living in Gaul and Germania took centuries to recover from Roman oppression. YES I SAID CENTURIES TO RECOVER from Roman oppression.

Some of the greatest slaughters in history occured under the rule of men such as Julius Ceaser and Augustus. The human suffering brought by Roman rulers in foreign lands makes todays sufferings seem like childs play.

I think people today tend to forget that everything that will happen has already happend. There is nothing new under the sun. The same thing African Americans are going through has already been gone through by countless ethnic groups throughout history.

Segregation was less then a generation ago!!! It will take a few generations before things return to "normal" for blacks. We should be happy a person like Obama was elected, it shows how much different attitudes among blacks and whites has changed in this past 30-40 years.

In other words DONT JUDGE

P.S. More Americans need to study history.
Exactly.

And out of the ashes of the Roman empire came the nations which would later come to dominate the modern world.

I think people need to stop overreacting.

 
Old 05-15-2009, 07:39 PM
 
812 posts, read 2,083,655 times
Reputation: 467
Quote:
I also don't believe that this cultural differences are set in stone. The winds are changing and more and more Blacks and Hispanics now see more and more positive role models and eventually we will kill the negative stereotypes and Blacks and Hispanics would no longer be 'tokens' in the fields requiring education and would no longer be the majority in the service industry and on low paying jobs. It will take time and maybe even a generation of two but I am pretty confident that it will happen.
this is another problem with american culture not so much with european culture and the stigma of lower-end jobs.

i was just in japan last year visiting some extended family and i was told that japan is not as class oriented as the west and the middle class i the majority including those working in the service industry. he was right and i saw what he was talking about. even when i was in korea, working at mcdonalds for instance is not nearly as depressing an option as it is in the states because of the cultural attitude that it's a job, period. there is not so much a derogatory stigma. also, it helps that the people you are working around seem like humans not just the dredge of society.

the idea one has to escape lower paying positions is saying there is something wrong with them and dirty work someone else should do. in america, i really understand it since i think i'd rather be dead than work in fast food in america and i've done during summer break before. also, the lower the job in america, the worse you are treated and people seem to be less respectful at those workplaces. contrary to what americans may assume, a lot of countries are not like that.

it's quite a different experience in some other countries as you don't feel you are being leveled to some metaphoric dark basement working with degenerates. um, unfortunately in america it does feel like that and you might be working around most degenerates. j/k, kind of since its kind of true.

Last edited by leaana; 05-15-2009 at 07:50 PM..
 
Old 05-15-2009, 08:22 PM
 
8,858 posts, read 9,684,317 times
Reputation: 6709
Quote:
Originally Posted by leaana View Post
this is another problem with american culture not so much with european culture and the stigma of lower-end jobs.

i was just in japan last year visiting some extended family and i was told that japan is not as class oriented as the west and the middle class i the majority including those working in the service industry. he was right and i saw what he was talking about. even when i was in korea, working at mcdonalds for instance is not nearly as depressing an option as it is in the states because of the cultural attitude that it's a job, period. there is not so much a derogatory stigma. also, it helps that the people you are working around seem like humans not just the dredge of society.

the idea one has to escape lower paying positions is saying there is something wrong with them and dirty work someone else should do. in america, i really understand it since i think i'd rather be dead than work in fast food in america and i've done during summer break before. also, the lower the job in america, the worse you are treated and people seem to be less respectful at those workplaces. contrary to what americans may assume, a lot of countries are not like that.

it's quite a different experience in some other countries as you don't feel you are being leveled to some metaphoric dark basement working with degenerates. um, unfortunately in america it does feel like that and you might be working around most degenerates. j/k, kind of since its kind of true.
unfortunately that is the legacy of slavery , it degraded common labor. Americans are to proud or ignorant to separate their job from their identity.
 
Old 05-15-2009, 08:49 PM
 
2,365 posts, read 10,249,848 times
Reputation: 690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milwaukee City View Post
My question is stupid, but i ask it anyway. I also forgot about the poor ignorant irish, itallians, welsh and uneducated, illiterate spanish, portugese, russian.
just call you stupid and ignore you...maybe you will go away!
 
Old 05-16-2009, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Mequon, WI
7,692 posts, read 18,982,703 times
Reputation: 4199
Quote:
Originally Posted by gea12345 View Post
just call you stupid and ignore you...maybe you will go away!

WOW, I didn't even write that!!!
 
Old 05-16-2009, 09:44 AM
miu
 
Location: MA/NH
16,532 posts, read 33,558,953 times
Reputation: 15275
Quote:
Originally Posted by leaana View Post
this is another problem with american culture not so much with european culture and the stigma of lower-end jobs.
The only current stigma with low end jobs is that Americans are consumers, and when one works a low end job, you can't afford the latest in frivolous electronic gadgets, cars and bling accessories. And some feel that in order to show ones' successes, one has to publicly be showing the ownership of such flashy gadgets or driving a luxury car. But low end jobs are supposed to only be a stepping stone, not a career. Jobs that require physical effort are fine while the body is young, but as one gets older, it's time for a more managerial job or something different.

It's Americans being so acquisitive that gets the low end job worker being so discontent. But recent immigrants get far by not wasting their money on totally unneccessary objects, and instead saving and pooling their money towards sensible goals like buying a house, an apartment building or a business. And they are willing to work extra jobs to do so. Many American born citizens are softer and have lost this drive to succeed based on their own hard efforts.

And there has always been the option of going to a night school or taking part time classes in order to get a degree and to get ahead.

Otherwise, there are plenty of stories of people who worked low end jobs and retired with a large nest egg even in the millions. They just didn't go on silly shopping sprees during their working life. They saved their money and invested it wisely.
 
Old 05-16-2009, 09:53 AM
 
812 posts, read 2,083,655 times
Reputation: 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by miu View Post
The only current stigma with low end jobs is that Americans are consumers, and when one works a low end job, you can't afford the latest in frivolous electronic gadgets, cars and bling accessories. And some feel that in order to show ones' successes, one has to publicly be showing the ownership of such flashy gadgets or driving a luxury car. But low end jobs are supposed to only be a stepping stone, not a career. Jobs that require physical effort are fine while the body is young, but as one gets older, it's time for a more managerial job or something different.

It's Americans being so acquisitive that gets the low end job worker being so discontent. But recent immigrants get far by not wasting their money on totally unneccessary objects, and instead saving and pooling their money towards sensible goals like buying a house, an apartment building or a business. And they are willing to work extra jobs to do so. Many American born citizens are softer and have lost this drive to succeed based on their own hard efforts.

And there has always been the option of going to a night school or taking part time classes in order to get a degree and to get ahead.

Otherwise, there are plenty of stories of people who worked low end jobs and retired with a large nest egg even in the millions. They just didn't go on silly shopping sprees during their working life. They saved their money and invested it wisely.
um, no, there is no stigma that you don't own a playstation 3. there is more stigma however of just having a lower end job because of prestige in america. that's even more prevalent than in some asian countries i've seen. there are old women that hauk their wares on the street and working low end jobs doesn't necessarily mean it's that backbreaking because of technology.

asians are more practical in some ways. you will see that most asians in america know their priorities as working towards a goal and saving money to attain the important things first. this still has nothing to do with stigma of lower end jobs. they don't stigmatize themselves or others if they own a takeout or laundromat or whatever "while" they are working to fulfill their monetary or educational goals because a real human being isn't just defined by their employment but how they live, what kind of neighbor they are, family member etc.
 
Old 05-19-2009, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh but I'm ready to relocate......
727 posts, read 1,654,964 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milwaukee City View Post
My question is in every city in America the worst area and most poor area is Black and the second most poor or dangerous is Hispanic but how and why have Asians bucked this minority trend? Go to the casino in Milwaukee and the high roller tables and rooms are all full of Asians and all engineering/math classes in college are either Indian or Asian. I suppose things are different in LA and SF but in Milwaukee we have a low Asian population but a high black and Hispanic population we have around 50-60,000 Asians. All our Asians for the most part are well educated well mannered and clean orderly people. Even the blue collar Asians have very nice homes and nice yards and you never see a Asian homeless guy in Milwaukee or anywhere else that I have seen. Milwaukee averages around 115-130 homicides even though last year we only had 70, not one Asian was killed or arrested for a homicide.

So if Asians were brought here by the white man to build the railroads and Hispanics immigrated here and blacks were brought here by slavery and all three ethnicity's started from the bottom why haven't Asians fallen into the "trap" that some claim that the man is holding them back and it's a white man's world...well the Asians have progressed and other ethnic backgrounds haven't why? I have seen many poor Asians that take such good care of there house and cars even thought they only make very little money and they are very polite people.

Another thing, I have talked to many immigrant Africans who don't like American black people b/c of the way they act and conduct themselves and I have been asked by people from Africa why are American blacks so violent in America? I have been told by many immigrants from Africa that say "they should be so happy just to be in America they have no reason to be mad and depressed"

So how have Asians Americans advanced and progressed and blacks and Hispanics not ? I'm talking as a whole society. You don't see Asian hoods in every city or Indian thugs on every corner in the hood.
Your whole argument is bs!! I've been to rich/Mid-class neighborhoods where its over 80% Black and the poor neighborhood neat there where nothing but poor white people living in trailers. You wanna bring up the problems but you should discuss why situations are. Blacks werent invited to America on a Yacht........wait we werent invited. You have to talk about the cause and the effects....dont just single out one part of the situation. Why would I be happy to be in a country that has raped,disenfranchised and murdered the innocent. Dont get me wrong I love America but that doesnt make me happy with everything in America.
 
Old 05-19-2009, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh but I'm ready to relocate......
727 posts, read 1,654,964 times
Reputation: 398
Seems to me OP just has his own set of problems with blacks. But Op should learn its not his place to point out the flaws of a race that he/she is not. And just focus on the human race.
 
Old 05-19-2009, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Sandpoint, Idaho
2,880 posts, read 5,096,252 times
Reputation: 3020
Lots of passion in this thread.

Let me add this. There comes a time when one must look to the future and treat much of his/her past as a sunk cost, whether that past was glorious or brutal. Why? Life today and going forward is simply getting tougher, not just to succeed in some reasonable fashion but to hold onto that success given the most economically competitive environment the world has probably ever seen.

There is simply no time or space for ignorance, hatred, complacency or arrogance. The world is in a humbling mode and demands that we all max our potential day in and day out to survive

I think Asians & Jews know this better than any race, not because it is in their DNA or "culture." Poppycock. But because in their recent past & present they have been pushed to the brink of annihilation and have had to grab and toe-hold or perish. The Japanese, the Chinese, the Koreans, the Vietnamese, the Jews, the Soviets...they had no choice, kill or be killed.

Today in Asia, their schooling systems are designed in such a brutal manner that they have no choice but to become study-hounds and battle-tested test-takers. Low GPA plus no family money in most of Asia is tantamount to an economic death sentence.

So what of the future of ethnic minorities in the US? I honestly think that step #1 for most is to go the sunk cost survival mode without asking why and whether one deserves a more even playing field. Note, I said most. By "most," I mean incomes in the range of lower middle class to poor, no family legacy of higher education, low net wealth,...you don't have any time to discuss economic theories of why you are where you are. To you, the past MUST be a sunk cost. Do your due diligence, put your nose to the books, kowtow, brown nose, strategize, whatever...but kick some economic a$$. Get out from the bottom of the bomb crater. Let your kids get pissed at the burden borne by your people while they are studying at Sorbonne or Cambridge.

As to the rich ethnic minorities, who either climbed out from the holes of despair or who were borne with a silver spoon, focus on context and process. Don't address the issues with the hope of achieving and the ends, but instead focus on correcting the processes so that the ills of the past slowly fade to the past instead of becoming harbingers of the future.

On Black America. I note that there is an undertone in this thread that is all too familiar. In my judgment, what we see now is, without any question, the multi-headed legacy of slavery and Jim Crow. Not even a shadow of a doubt. An excuse? Hmmm...irrelevant, since such questions set the wrong tone. However, as a deductive explanation? Of course the legacy has bearing on the plight of many black communities. Now...what to do? Here is where things need to get a whole lot simpler.

My Seven Step Solution (none are easy)
1) Forget every expecting that the country will accept responsibility. It won't, as painful and unmindful of history and economics as that might be, it won't.

2) Do not expect that the pain you have gone through, perhaps even personally, has won you any extra privileges with the body politik. It has not. It will not. Even amongst the bleeding heart liberals, you represent tokenism, shame at the past, painful reminders of America's dirty laundry. Not my opinion, mind you, but a political reality.

3) Somehow, extricate yourselves from the "minstrelism," of the assigned role given to you by White Liberal America, one as difficult as the poverty trap. Black inroads into the elites of this country remain disproportionately associated with sports and entertainment. Yes, today, this means millions upon millions for the lucky few, but at what unbelievably high cost? While I think "action in the affirmative" is what a moral US should seek for victims of institutionalized oppression, "affirmative action" has been, above all else, a salve for White liberal guilt. Break free from this perpetual cycle that with each revolution has put the American Dream further out reach for poor Blacks than ever before.

4) Flip things around. Academic Superstars in math, science, economics, statistics, etc. Celebrate these. Celebrities? WTF are you doing? You are mirror images of Bleeding Heart Liberals. Oprah, enough with the posh school in South Africa... Instead, jack up the funding, not of America's top model, but of the many young Blacks who love Math, computer science, physics, etc., but are "undercelebrated" even in their own homes... Black America is so incredibly rich with right-brained superstars, but it is time to fund the left-brain guys. Shelby Steele, John McWhorter, Thomas Sowell, Stephen Carter, Condoleezza Rice and now Susan Rice...are an amazing brain trust, yet I doubt they have community recognition beyond the elites.

5) Wash the dirty laundry, somehow and in someway. Push the old guard out. Let the fresh young blood take over. It is not denying the past or turning Uncle Tom, the single worst and counterproductive form of character assassination in Black America. It is as if a White Grand Dragon of the KKK invented the accusation! What better way to get undermine the efforts of the best and brightest that to accuse it of disloyalty and disrespect to the legacy of an entire people. Don't just fail to support some thug cop killer, go out and demonstrate against the greatest killers of Blacks today, low-life Black thugs. This is a Civil War whether you like it or not.

A big part of this step is to repair the family unit, end the glorification of the thug, end the misogyny & homophobia, & Uncle Tomism, and get ultra nerdy and geeky...

6) Get out from the golden handshake with White Liberal America. They have run things such that the image of Black America is firmly defined in their terms. MLK, Free Mumia, Spike Lee, basketball, Hip Hop, etc. And have marooned the brilliant scholars and thinkers listed above. My goodness...Note, I don't mean go to Fox News. Far from it, just break free...

7) Force America to openly take about race. White America can no longer discuss race. More often than not, they will choose the exit option. It should not surprise. They walk on egg shells and feel it is damned if you do and damned if you don't. You must take the lead.

As insane as it may seem, I think that you need to let Whites use the "N" word. Hold on!! Before you flame me, hear me out. Let them get it out of their system. Many Whites I know cannot have public conversations on race, but open up privately in "safe" settings. This is terrible. I don;t like the word, but it and other taboo words like "boy" have to be out in the open. No one but you can revive normal, genteel, cross-cultural conversations about race. Only you can. And I think it will go a long way into bridging the huge divide that has been created over the years.

Seven steps. All of which are forward looking. Bag all others, even though the grievances therein may be legitimate or have great merit. As a people, you cannot forward the status quo. Shed the yoke of history as I am afraid no one else will. You owe it to yourselves.

A friend,
S.
P.S. OK, flame on. I welcome the debate.
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