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Old 05-21-2009, 07:16 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh but I'm ready to relocate......
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC View Post
I can't answer your question but I've never met an Asian or read about an Asian that thought they were a victim of society. I don't know of any Asian Community Organizers or any Asian demands on American society as a group of people in need of special treatment.
See the thing is whites and non-blacks try to downplay the scars that AA/Blacks have dealt with by saying "Theyre crying." or "They think theyre victims." and thats not the reality of the situation. Thats just white peoples own insecurity.

 
Old 05-21-2009, 02:29 PM
 
583 posts, read 1,116,271 times
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I think this thread is starting to go into the wrong direction in trying to come up with the explanations to the question the OP asked. Concentrating on the 'hardships' or 'unfair treatment' or atrocities that various races, nationalities, ethnicities experienced during history is a deviating from the context in which the question is asked. The question concerns those living in the US. US is a unique country and how different races and ethnicities perceive themselves and are perceived is determined by different types of factors, in particular in context of immigration. We are all immigrants here, let's just start from that, whether you are a white descendant of early pilgrim settlers or a recent 1st generation immigrant from Pakistan.

When an immigrant comes to a new country this person in a way is asking for a 'place' in that new society, is asking for resources to make a living, to establish the family, etc. Perhaps, most voluntary immigrants have the so called 'cinderella' mentality or 'poor relative' mentality where they are the ones asking for favors and are accepting their place as someone having to start from the very bottom. This leads to desire to overachieve just to be on par with the 'already settled' population or what we call the 'majority' - those who are 'entitled' to the resources of this country.

To the OP: What is the difference between a poor person born in another country and immigrating into US and a poor person born in the US? I think you have to ask this question first.

I understand your next question would be: Ok, the newcomer will strive to work harder to be able to 'earn a place' in this new country whereas the person born here would feel more entitled to the resources of this country. But what about 3rd or 5th generation immigrants, they are born here as well as their parents or grandparents?

I am just going to make a primitive effort to explain this, I am not a social scientist or a researcher and have no time to do extensive statistics.
A newcomer as I said before would have more of a mentality of a 'poor relative', someone who comes to your house seeking help and shelter. They won't have the same sense of entitlement to the resources of the country they came to as someone who they consider the 'majority' or the 'natives' - in the situation with the US - those who came much before them. It so happened that the 1st newcomers were white (English, Spanish and French speaking to be exact). Then there were blacks brought in against their will. Generations and generations of white americans (both English and Spanish speaking - hispanics) and blacks have now lived for over 200 years in the US and would constitute what we would consider the 'native makeup' of the population. No offense to Native Americans (Indians), the whites and blacks and hispanics (which are mostly whites and mestizo) are the more established immigrants. Immigrants from Asia and India and Eastern Europe are more recent arrivals when long term history is concerned. At the time immigrants from Asia, Indonesia, India and Middle East arrived majority or 'settled population' was constuted of whites and blacks that also happen to look very different from Asians and those of Indian or Middle Eastern descent. It all may sound stupid as I say it, but it's just a simple fact - we judge people on appearance and looking like you belong to a certain race or nationality plays a huge role even though we don't want to admit it. So, when Irish and Jewish and some Eastern European settlers have arrived they were treated badly, they worked harder, had the same immigrant 'poor relative' mentality, but their kids and the kids of their kids were able to get a higher sense of entitlement as time went by because they also could blend in easier with the 'older settlers' white population. In other words, it was difficult to distinguish a second generation Irish immigrant from a person of English or Scottish descent who's ancestors arrived 300 years ago. It was much more difficult for the 2nd and 3rd generation of immigrants of Asian or Indian or Pacific Islander descendants that even though they were born in the US and spoke perfect English they still 'looked' like newcomers. Because of that, maybe (and I am hypothesizing here) they had developed a higher drive to succeed, pushing their children into the educational institutions of greater reputation and professional jobs to be on par with the successful peers from the 'white majority' to prove that they are 'the same' and deserve the same resources. It's almost like having a younger brother looking up to the older brother or an adopted child trying to be better than other siblings.

Now as far as Blacks are concerned, they are not recent immigrants, they have become as much of a 'settled majority' as those of white European descent. They've been in this country for a while and generations were born here. Some blacks actually experience similar 'poor relative' mentality, that's why we have and always had blacks that would 'overachieve', those who work much harder and want to go further, those to enter Ivy League institutions and move to the upper class white neighborhoods. But majority of poor blacks just like poor whites, just like poor hispanics would feel more entitled and would lose this 'cinderella' complex so characteristic of recent immigrants.

Time will pass and our 'model minorities' would lose their 'poor relative' mentality too and become part of the 'majority'. The more of a melting pot we become the less someone who doesn't look white or black would appear to be an 'outsider' or a 'new arrival'.
 
Old 05-21-2009, 02:37 PM
 
Location: I think my user name clarifies that.
8,293 posts, read 22,513,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarqueseGilmore View Post
See the thing is whites and non-blacks try to downplay the scars that AA/Blacks have dealt with by saying "Theyre crying." or "They think theyre victims." and thats not the reality of the situation. Thats just white peoples own insecurity.
I'm not sure I can agree with that.

I think there is a point where ALL of us - both culturally and individually - MUST decide whether we're going to have our future dictated by our past, and whether we're going to wallow in self-pity, or struggle to move ahead.

Saying that it's time to get over something and move on is not the same as saying that the past was okay and that nothing wrong was ever done. It's simply saying that it's time to move on.
 
Old 05-21-2009, 05:44 PM
miu
 
Location: MA/NH
16,528 posts, read 33,515,560 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks View Post
I'm not sure I can agree with that.

I think there is a point where ALL of us - both culturally and individually - MUST decide whether we're going to have our future dictated by our past, and whether we're going to wallow in self-pity, or struggle to move ahead.

Saying that it's time to get over something and move on is not the same as saying that the past was okay and that nothing wrong was ever done. It's simply saying that it's time to move on.
Great post!!
 
Old 05-21-2009, 06:00 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,099,092 times
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I think this largely boils down to semantics...I mean at some point we can all agree that we should move on. But the reality is that we all do move on, with (but not from) the history, that we've experienced...I dont think that part is an option.

Its much like asking someone with a criminal conviction on their record to just move on...That person will certainly try to move on, but his/her history does have an impact on his present and future state...Particularly when he is not the party who holds power over his employment potential, living circumstances (renting, borrowing, etc)

Moving on, does not mean moving on without...Especially as it regards history.
 
Old 05-21-2009, 06:02 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,564,739 times
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calculus instead of hip hop? just guessing.
 
Old 05-21-2009, 07:06 PM
 
Location: Sandpoint, Idaho
2,880 posts, read 5,088,527 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KT13 View Post
It was much more difficult for the 2nd and 3rd generation of immigrants of Asian or Indian or Pacific Islander descendants that even though they were born in the US and spoke perfect English they still 'looked' like newcomers. Because of that, maybe (and I am hypothesizing here) they had developed a higher drive to succeed, pushing their children into the educational institutions of greater reputation and professional jobs to be on par with the successful peers from the 'white majority' to prove that they are 'the same' and deserve the same resources. It's almost like having a younger brother looking up to the older brother or an adopted child trying to be better than other siblings.
KT, allow me a different take on this part. The research is that first generation adult immigrants are of a different type than 2nd, and 3rd & beyond. 1st adult generation immigrants are the ones who made the hard decisions to leave their native lands and then upon arrival decided to make it a go and claim a piece of the American dream. Their views are very mainstream and far more conservative than the color of their skin or language might indicate.

For Hispanic migrants, there used top be a big difference in the economic performance of first generation v. the second generation. This seems no longer to be the case. Many new 1st and generation Hispanic Americans grow up disillusioned mainly due to the propaganda cranked out by schools and by American media. Typically, after their parents established a beachhead and sacrificed so much to do so, the "job" of future generations is to consolidate forces and move inland proper. While immigrants with longer tenure are well established, the existence of these new waves of Hispanic immigrants remains precarious. I believe many are angry, whilst failing to realize that their job is not to relax but to continue the fight as has usually been the case among immigrants to the US.

Today's Hispanic migrant is so vastly different from those of yesteryear owing mainly to the well-intentioned but short-sighted amnesty of GW Bush early in his administration. Three million (!) Mexican labourers were given a free pass to gain permanent legal residency and get fast tracked to citizenship. So instead of keeping the process tough and putting the burden on the individual to seek and win their American Dream. And as we know, put a prize of zero on any good and that that good is no longer deemed so important to be cared for or conserved (e.g. fresh water, clean air). So now the traditional problem of the second generation is pushed into the first.

Just added this link which show cases the fundamentally different mold of immigrant of the past two generations
http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=7645324

These guys are far more dangerous than the real swine flu and will require far more courage to extricate once the host is infected.

Now take these 3 million with their fresh passes to the US and assign 3 kids each, and a wife (since most are males) BAM! 12 million new immigrants who want to stay in the US, not necessarily threw blood, sweat and tears, but because it sure is better than South of the border. Note should I or anyone else be so quick to judge such a motive...

what of Asian and Pacific Islander immigrants? Well, API immigrants are of four types. One, you have migrants from extremely well educated Asian elites, MD, PhD, grads from their top universities who seek to maximize their potential in the US. You find them in the high-scoring, wealthy suburbs of the SF Peninsula.

Two, you have the war refugees from Vietnam and Laos and to a lesser extent, Cambodia. These were a mix of income classes, including large numbers of poor, who survived war and/or harrowing flights from their countries. Note that their income levels are much lower to start with in the US and in communities with higher crime rates than the former. But since they live in enclaves their communities more resemble the "Chinatowns" of old.

Three, you have the foreign students H1B Visa types. Many tens of thousands enter the US today in this manner. They are not necessarily the elites of their countries, many are, but they did enough to get into decent to excellent US programs. They are well-schooled and some well-educated. They are economic migrants plain and simple with loyalty to the job at Microsoft, HP, etc. but not necessarily to the US. Some are in fact are openly hostile to the US. Again, the price of their entrance is cheap, so access to the US has little value beyond the $$. This ain't about lifestyle or the American Dream, this about $.

Finally, number four, is via the family route. You see this with the Filipino community in particular. Babies born in US, cousins, nephews, nieces, etc. soon come over. This is in many ways old-fashioned immigration to the US. Perhaps for this reason, the American Filipinos are the most assimilated of Asian Immigrants.

For each, the second generation and beyond is very much shaped by the reason for coming with the first generation. The daughter of two Taiwanese American Ph.D.s in biochemistry living in Monte Sereno, an exceedingly wealthy enclave in Silicon Valley, cannot be compared to the cousin of a Philippine barber or a Laotian refugee who survived years in a Thai refugee camp or South China Sea piracy.

The education stats tend to bear this out. Looking only within the Asian community, the academic superstars are very much defined by socioeconomic class. American fails to understand this since there are so many Asians in our top public universities, forgetting that East Asia has about 5 times the population as the US and is exceptionally diverse. Add in the South Asians and the diversity increases exponentially!

Same goes for the Mexican immigrant population. Two generations ago, kids of Mexican immigrants were encouraged to speak English as a means of access to their new adopted homeland. Richard Rodriguez wrote about this very eloquently in his book, Hunger for Memory. The idea was to leave Mexico behind and survive in the US. They also came from more varied backgrounds. Most Mexican immigrants of that era are very well assimilated and spread throughout the income distribution.

The most recent generations are something altogether different. Much poorer, from much poorer parts of Mexico. Many spent time in the God awful border areas. They predominantly come from the lowest quintile of income distribution within Mexico and with little education. They are the inscription on the Statue of Liberty.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me...."

A good number have little appreciation of education or appreciation of the US. They are economic refugees, much like the foreign student crowd, albeit at the complete opposite end of the income and educational spectrum.


Black Americans can only be brought into the discussion on immigration if they were in fact immigrants to the US. Jamaicans, Haitians, Nigerians, etc. yes. Many of these groups assimilate quite nicely, whereas some do not. And guess what? Those with the most trouble are mainly those who were at the bottom end of the distribution in their home countries...Those Black Americans with roots in the slavery of the 17th-19th century, of course not. They were not immigrants.


Context is everything in the social sciences. If we ignore it, then we simply miss the human dimension of each community. Understanding the historical background should not be considered "an excuse" for these communities nor should any such failure to give that consideration be given any weight. Rather, historical context allows us to explain the economic and political conditions of these and other communities. Without explanations, conversations easily spin from level headed scientific discourse to cartoonish conversations filled with the dark ignorance of racism and hatred, both of which are more about self-loathing and schadenfreude than with any sincere attempt to understand the plight of the target population.

S.

Last edited by Sandpointian; 05-21-2009 at 08:15 PM..
 
Old 05-21-2009, 07:07 PM
 
3,277 posts, read 4,501,676 times
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Interestingly enough, I just got done talking to an acquaintance of mine whose parents emigrated from Bosnia about a story in the Czech news of a far right party running an ad proposing a final solution(exact words) to gypsies. If you think there are racial problems in America, you haven't heard an Eastern European talk about Roma. Some stories I've heard are that they purposely injure their own children or make them feign injury to beg for money. Or that they go into barbershops in large numbers and pretend to want to be serviced while they steal everything. Or that they assault garbage collectors so frequently that they refuse to go to Roma projects and the trash just piles up. Eve stories that they kidnap non Roma children and force them to beg and steal. The list goes on ad nauseum.

Anyway, it just illustrates how such problems are never really confined to any specific group of people. It's never that X people are born parasites, and X people can do no wrong as the OP and others would have you believe. Anyone who has international perspective knows that every region of the world seems to have a different ethnic group it considers leeches and a different ethnic group it considers a "model minority".
 
Old 05-22-2009, 07:23 AM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA
2,290 posts, read 4,954,463 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
calculus instead of hip hop? just guessing.
African and Indigenous Latino history instead of European history? Just guessing.
 
Old 05-23-2009, 04:33 AM
 
Location: Dorchester
2,602 posts, read 4,220,465 times
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Until blacks and many Hispanic communities move away from the culture of having children out of wedlock it will remain the way it is.

I live in an area that is about 50/50 black/white. When I see a black woman with children I fully expect that there will not be a wedding ring on her finger. It is the opposite with white women with children.
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