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Old 06-01-2009, 06:41 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,093,494 times
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One of the problems in making these asinine comparisons between blacks and other cultures is that no one takes into consideration the encumbering affect that chronology has on a culture's plight; particularly when that chronology involves ongoing injustices over such a long span of history. Which is why this discourse so often leads to the black experience being taken out of its historical context.

We always say "Well every culture has had its problems, quit thinking you are victims and get over it...The Jews had this, the Native Americans had that, the Japanese had yada yada yada"....

And the ethnic atrocities that are referred to are usually very overt and quantifiable in both the degree of their inhumanity, and the relatively brief, swift time frame over which they transpired. They also happened largely AFTER the advent of mass media distribution. Meaning those transgressions were not allowed to be proliferated very far without foreign intervention, or without this nation risking its reputation abroad.

The black experience, much like the Native American experience, was not always able to be televised, or printed and distributed. And we see what the Native American culture has been become. The Native American culture decided to isolate THEMSELVES from what they viewed as the European mans ways. That works for them because they are in their own homeland, and are able to live off of THEIR land. They never did nor were they ever forced to assimilate to the mainstream American culture.

But because blacks were an integral part of this country's entrepreneurship, and the only race who could sustain the workmanship required to maintain cheap labor, coupled with the fact that early blacks found themselves in a foreign climate, with foreign soil types, it was vital that blacks be indoctrinated just enough to feel the need to remain a part of this nation's infrastructure, yet be disenfranchised enough not to possess any financial power in this country. The only way for the black culture to keep its own distinct folkways in tact and bear the full brunt of their failures in this nation, would have been for them to be allowed to form their own provinces with their own govt, and their own means of communication/language from early on, as we saw with Native Americans...

and had this been done we would hear the same outcry and inquiry from the predominate culture about why blacks underachieve that we hear from them about why the Native American culture underachieves and has high suicide rates etc. Which we can all see that the outcry is precisely NONE. Because despite being left to their own devices as of the 1830's A.) We already know that we wiped out their food source, threw those people on their own govt. issued plots of land after pillaging their land, people, and culture


and B.) They never tried to integrate into mainstream American culture to begin with, so we can easily turn a blind eye to their culture as they sit on their govt. plot and drink and commit suicide..etc....we did our damage, we're hands off now ...not our problem right?

But oh those pesky blacks... Not only did we allow them to penetrate mainstream society (albeit ill equipped and deprived of educational access for centuries), and now have to reap the affects of generations of educational deprivation and denial of this country's most fundamental aspects (land ownership, loans, etc.). But now it really sucks because we cant just snap our fingers (after 40 years of pseudo-equality) and reverse the desecration that resulted from 100's of years of dismantling hundreds of thousands of black families, and social inequality...

It seems like it would have been so much simpler huh? I mean after all, those few 100,000 Asians and 6 million Jews sure turned out alright after that 10 year stint (if that) of internment/Holocaust.

Last edited by solytaire; 06-01-2009 at 07:40 PM..

 
Old 06-01-2009, 08:06 PM
 
Location: Sandpoint, Idaho
2,880 posts, read 5,079,727 times
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Hi Marquese,
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarqueseGilmore View Post
My argument isnt about getting ahead. Most black folk get ahead just fine.
Unfortunately, the stats suggest the opposite for the average individual. For the "survivors," this is the golden age thus far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarqueseGilmore View Post
My argument is that whites and Non-blacks dont understand the scars we have. Its about the reality of the situation. We werent brought to America by freewill. Consider that before anything.......and then you have to consider that the majority of black people have lived the recession since birth. The problem isnt us not working hard.
Agree...but...I think the % of sympathy is at an all time low and likely will not return. Harsh reality, but reality nonetheless. Reasons include increasing numbers of first-generation victims of racial hate that have immigrated to the US, the removal of the worst institutional impediments, the hundreds of billions spent thus far with little returns, if not negative. And yes, in some pockets, racism.

There are two dimensions here that have to be separated. One, is acknowledgement from non-Blacks (this is something Blacks cannot control). The other is what to do to pull oneself out of the poverty trap, this is something that only Blacks can truly control. Never the twain shall meet.

Satisfaction is largely a function of expectations. Expect little and anything received is greatly appreciated. Right now, my my read of national politics, expectations of righting the wrong are very high. And the failure of non-Black America to fully restore matters (the extent of which is subject to a lengthy debate) adds to bitter dissatisfaction. Safe to say, a general bewilderment among many as to why slavery remains such a hot button issue.

Again, that its legacy remains should be clear. But what to do about it? Here a dramatic shift in expectations is warranted. It HAS to happen. If not, the deterioration of the Black community will persist and gentrification will continue the resegregation process that has been underway for quite some time.

S.
 
Old 06-01-2009, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Mequon, WI
7,680 posts, read 18,932,729 times
Reputation: 4159
Life is tough...get a helmet. The more time you use making excuses the more time you take away from solutions. I hear all these reason but I only heard one good reason, all I have to say is...SO WHAT! you think the Irish came over here with gold spoons? the best way to get past any problem is the so what attitude. So What!!! that ain't me, Let me prove them wrong!!!

We need more of a go-getter attitude instead of whoa is me. The only person who can do that is you. enough said.
 
Old 06-01-2009, 08:41 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,093,494 times
Reputation: 1815
Life is tough, I agree...people should quit whining...including those whining about why blacks and minorities are underachieving and committing crimes...buncha whiners...lol...j/k
 
Old 06-01-2009, 08:55 PM
 
Location: NYC
471 posts, read 856,387 times
Reputation: 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milwaukee City View Post
My question is in every city in America the worst area and most poor area is Black and the second most poor or dangerous is Hispanic but how and why have Asians bucked this minority trend? Go to the casino in Milwaukee and the high roller tables and rooms are all full of Asians and all engineering/math classes in college are either Indian or Asian. I suppose things are different in LA and SF but in Milwaukee we have a low Asian population but a high black and Hispanic population we have around 50-60,000 Asians. All our Asians for the most part are well educated well mannered and clean orderly people. Even the blue collar Asians have very nice homes and nice yards and you never see a Asian homeless guy in Milwaukee or anywhere else that I have seen. Milwaukee averages around 115-130 homicides even though last year we only had 70, not one Asian was killed or arrested for a homicide.

So if Asians were brought here by the white man to build the railroads and Hispanics immigrated here and blacks were brought here by slavery and all three ethnicity's started from the bottom why haven't Asians fallen into the "trap" that some claim that the man is holding them back and it's a white man's world...well the Asians have progressed and other ethnic backgrounds haven't why? I have seen many poor Asians that take such good care of there house and cars even thought they only make very little money and they are very polite people.

Another thing, I have talked to many immigrant Africans who don't like American black people b/c of the way they act and conduct themselves and I have been asked by people from Africa why are American blacks so violent in America? I have been told by many immigrants from Africa that say "they should be so happy just to be in America they have no reason to be mad and depressed"

So how have Asians Americans advanced and progressed and blacks and Hispanics not ? I'm talking as a whole society. You don't see Asian hoods in every city or Indian thugs on every corner in the hood.
You want to see ghettos for ALL of the ethic groups you listed? Come to New York City. They are all here. We have Polish, Indian, Asian, Hispanic, Black, you name it! There are more Hispanics (15.1%) and Blacks (12%) in the US
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html
so of course there will be more Ghettos with these two ethnic groups. Asians, who are only 4.4% of the US population excel more in education because it's a cultural thing. Again, come to any Asian town in NYC and you'll find 20K+ tutoring schools. Which, by the way, is an excellent quality, I wish we could all learn more from that. However, you can also see sweatshops, drugs, tons of counterfeiting and poverty in Chinatown. The Indian and Polish communities are harder to spot in the Census quoted because they don't have their own denomination under the census.
 
Old 06-01-2009, 09:02 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,093,494 times
Reputation: 1815
Too, one trend Im spotting is that not many people can distinguish between a reason and an excuse. We ask for reasons which by definition is the scientific explanation of the cause of some phenomenon...and then call those reasons, excuses...not very reasonable if you ask me.

Its like asking whats "wrong" with a rape victim and why cant she sustain a functional relationship, and then when she brings up the historical fact that she was raped, and that this may have some bearing on her functionality within relationships - then we tell her to quit whining and making excuses...lol sure that'll work

Look, all Im saying is it is streamlined foolishness to sit up and ask "Well whats wrong with Blacks, but not the so's and so's"...when A) You dont truly want to hear the honest answer [again] - B) We all know damn well whats wrong with blacks. The same thing thats been wrong with blacks since they were brought here: A multi-generational history of unequal access to the entities and institutions in this society that facilitate upward mobility...plain and simple. Call it whining, using a crutch, the race card or whatever lets you sleep at night...Dont care..

But what needs to be asked is: What can be done, moving forward, by ALL Americans that will be conducive to the progressiveness and productivity of our African American compatriots? And if you arent willing to ask that question AND participate in the solution..then perhaps you too are just another whiner.
 
Old 06-01-2009, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Sandpoint, Idaho
2,880 posts, read 5,079,727 times
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Hi Solytaire,
Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire View Post
We always say "Well every culture has had its problems, quit thinking you are victims and get over it...The Jews had this, the Native Americans had that, the Japanese had yada yada yada"....

And the ethnic atrocities that are referred to are usually very overt and quantifiable in both the degree of their inhumanity, and the relatively brief, swift time frame over which they transpired. They also happened largely AFTER the advent of mass media distribution. Meaning those transgressions were not allowed to be proliferated very far without foreign intervention, or without this nation risking its reputation abroad.
Unfortunately, this is not really the case.

>>The Jews have suffered pogroms for 2000 years and lost 6 million in only six years. No one intervened until European guilt was so great that Jews were "given" Palestine...and put them from the fire into the frying pan.

>2 million Cambodians (20-30%) of the entire population was exterminated. No one intervened.

> Supposedly 1 million Armenians died when forced to leave parts of the Ottoman empire in 1915-1916, thus wiping out much of their culture. Whether they were killed outright is subject to hot debate. No one intervened.

>> Gypsies of Europe, hated for generations, were systemically exterminated in most of Europe. No intervention and no homeland.

If you dismiss their experiences, I think you are unlikely to find much "actionable sympathy" on behalf of peoples who in their lifetimes suffered much to get to these shores.


Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire View Post
The Native American culture decided to isolate THEMSELVES from what they viewed as the European mans ways. That works for them because they are in their own homeland, and are able to live off of THEIR land. They never did nor were they ever forced to assimilate to the mainstream American culture.
Are you serious? You may want to read your American History. The Creek & Seminole Wars, The Trail of Tears, and the Indian Wars were systematic and extremely successful efforts to drive Native Americans off of desired land...What you see now, is Native Americans on the worst patches of land, land that most have no ancestral ties to.

There was forced education for many years.

Their abject poverty, the worst in the US prior to the "Indian Casino" era, is direct evidence that they have NOT been able to live off their land. Most income is derived from welfare handouts. Here the Black and Native American experience converge and diverge from those of Asians. Welfare for the former and very little for the latter.

Destroying economic incentives has probably been more successful at destroying the black community than any post-slavery racism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire View Post
But because blacks were an integral part of this country's entrepreneurship, and the only race who could sustain the workmanship required to maintain cheap labor, coupled with the fact that early blacks found themselves in a foreign climate, with foreign soil types, it was vital that blacks be indoctrinated just enough to feel the need to remain a part of this nation's infrastructure, yet be disenfranchised enough not to possess any financial power in this country.
Sorry, this is racial fantasizing and historical revisionism.

Blacks were brought into the Americas starting in the 14th century for one thing and one thing only free and productive labour. They were not treated as human but as beasts of burden. Workmanship has nothing to do with it.
It started with the Portuguese and the importation of Blacks to work sugar plantations. Eventually, that went to tobacco and then to cotton.

Foreign climates and soil types? What? They were imported to work the land. Not only was their soil knowledge irrelevant but probably discouraged as was most forms of education. By the time they were freed, no memory whatsoever of soil conditions in Africa would have applied to the vast majority of freed-slaves.

Indoctrination assumes a doctrine that had to be re-taught. This was not the case. Slaves were dehumanized, families broken apart and traded. The only doctrine that might remain after such a process is religion.

Post-slavery, the situation was scarcely better. Most newly free blacks were uneducated and unskilled. Most turned to sharecropping. Blacks that went to the cities were isolated in black enclaves and blacktowns.

The world wars and segregation led to massive migrations into the rust belt and industrial centers of the West.

Laws were put in place that prevented "uppity" blacks from integrating or climbing the social ladder. Black society was a parallel society, a virtual separate culture with very little mixing save for the occasional entertainment star or athlete.

Always best to deal with facts and realities. Their place in society was via policy not subtle means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire View Post
The only way for the black culture to keep its own distinct folkways in tact and bear the full brunt of their failures in this nation, would have been for them to be allowed to form their own provinces with their own govt, and their own means of communication/language from early on, as we saw with Native Americans...
One, this did not happen with the Native Americans.

Two, native Americans placed on reservations were largely from single tribes and were able to continue many of their traditions. One of slavery's great tragedies is that ethnic identities were stripped. All we know is the vast major of Black slaves came from West Africa. No single language would have been obvious.

Three, Liberia was created by free Blacks with the encouragement of the US government. Abe Lincoln himself thoought the only reasonable solution would have been to send freed Blacks back to Africa, perhaps to a colony.

Four, no government gives land to freed slaves. Here, history was not on the side of Blacks. Had emancipation taken place 50 years earlier, freed Blacks may have been send into the Wild Western Frontier. Had this happened, however, it is likely that the Indian Wars would have been the Indian & Black wars. But...this never happened.


Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire View Post
and had this been done we would hear the same outcry and inquiry from the predominate culture about why blacks underachieve that we hear from them about why the Native American culture underachieves and has high suicide rates etc. Which we can all see that the outcry is precisely NONE. Because despite being left to their own devices as of the 1830's A.) We already know that we wiped out their food source, threw those people on their own govt. issued plots of land after pillaging their land, people, and culture
and B.) They never tried to integrate into mainstream American culture to begin with, so we can easily turn a blind eye to their culture as they sit on their govt. plot and drink and commit suicide..etc....we did our damage, we're hands off now ...not our problem right?
I Agree


Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire View Post
But oh those pesky blacks... Not only did we allow them to penetrate mainstream society (albeit ill equipped and deprived of educational access for centuries), and now have to reap the affects of generations of educational deprivation and denial of this country's most fundamental aspects (land ownership, loans, etc.). But now it really sucks because we cant just snap our fingers (after 40 years of pseudo-equality) and reverse the desecration that resulted from 100's of years of dismantling hundreds of thousands of black families, and social inequality...
I agree...but there is no choice. This has nothing to do with racism, but economic reality. People barely have time to care about their own. Blacks cannot rely on the moral imperative of others to right their ship. To do so is suicide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire View Post
It seems like it would have been so much simpler huh? I mean after all, those few 100,000 Asians and 6 million Jews sure turned out alright after that 10 year stint (if that) of internment/Holocaust.
Unfortunately, your own bitterness has removed all sympathy for the plight of others. The plight of Jews since the Crusades has alternated between acceptance and genocide. They are who they are largely because they chose to survive in the nooks and crannies left to them.

As for the Asians, I tell you, you had best read your history. Many Asians in America survived decades of systematic exclusion. Treated as dirt and subhuman. No, they were no enslaved, and yes that is a huge difference, but to dismiss their experiences is incredibly ignorant.

Jews and Asians have received little to no help from the majority culture. Much of their survival was from assuming no one would ever help them. That drive is still clear today. Again, it is an issue of expectations.

If your POV is the rule rather than the exception, then the challenge before Black America is perhaps greater than I would have thought. Blacks are currently 38% of non-Hispanic Whites. Projections are that by 2050, this number will be 28%. This suggests that as time unfolds, the non-White experience will be increasingly defined by non-Blacks, namely Hispanics and Asians. Denigrating the suffering of others is a sure fire race to the bottom and will not help the Black cause whatsoever.

S.
 
Old 06-01-2009, 09:25 PM
 
Location: British Columbia.
343 posts, read 1,233,150 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpointian View Post

Jews and Asians have received little to no help from the majority culture. Much of their survival was from assuming no one would ever help them. That drive is still clear today. Again, it is an issue of expectations.

If your POV is the rule rather than the exception, then the challenge before Black America is perhaps greater than I would have thought. Blacks are currently 38% of non-Hispanic Whites. Projections are that by 2050, this number will be 28%. This suggests that as time unfolds, the non-White experience will be increasingly defined by non-Blacks, namely Hispanics and Asians. Denigrating the suffering of others is a sure fire race to the bottom and will not help the Black cause whatsoever.

S.
'

Except a proper explanation is lacking. Asians and Jews come from a tradiation of nearly 2,000 plus years of education. Whereas blacks do not. Most Asians arrived in the United States with rather intact social structures and cultural norms, whereas blacks did not.

I do agree with you that over time that the non white experience in America is increasingly becoming defined by non blacks. I do believe that over time, and its already happening alot of the concerns and political power of blacks will be watered down by Asians and hispanics.
 
Old 06-01-2009, 10:43 PM
 
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Good day Sandpointian

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpointian View Post


Unfortunately, this is not really the case.

>>The Jews have suffered pogroms for 2000 years and lost 6 million in only six years. No one intervened until European guilt was so great that Jews were "given" Palestine...and put them from the fire into the frying pan.

>2 million Cambodians (20-30%) of the entire population was exterminated. No one intervened.

> Supposedly 1 million Armenians died when forced to leave parts of the Ottoman empire in 1915-1916, thus wiping out much of their culture. Whether they were killed outright is subject to hot debate. No one intervened.

>> Gypsies of Europe, hated for generations, were systemically exterminated in most of Europe. No intervention and no homeland.

If you dismiss their experiences, I think you are unlikely to find much "actionable sympathy" on behalf of peoples who in their lifetimes suffered much to get to these shores.


Please know that I am not dismissing the experiences of other cultures...I primarily focus on the experiences of races in this country for a reason..because in reality the other experiences you detail carry diminished cultural pertinence to our present day reality in this country. And as I stated and as you may note from only a few pages back in this thread, I explicitly said: I will not and CANNOT revisit the Biblical transgressions inflicted upon Jews...But I am well aware that Jews have been seeking refuge from atrocities for eons. Secondly, Jews not withstanding, the ethnicities involved in the other inhumanities you mention arent doing too hot themselves today either >> (Gypsies, Armenians)...so paralleling their experiences isnt likely to enthrall blacks into reform.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpointian View Post
Are you serious? You may want to read your American History. The Creek & Seminole Wars, The Trail of Tears, and the Indian Wars were systematic and extremely successful efforts to drive Native Americans off of desired land...What you see now, is Native Americans on the worst patches of land, land that most have no ancestral ties to.

There was forced education for many years.


Thats your assertion? No are YOU serious, at the time of colonization most of the land here was uninhabited by Indians or otherwise, but those who did endure the hardships were not excised to a completely different continent. They may not have had ancestral ties to the land but the survivors had enough familiarity with the general climate/soil type that they were able to subsist without the need for American enterprise; and indeed would have without the decimation of their habit (bison). Thats not intended to diminish the plight of the Native American in this country, but many of them committed suicide before assimilating...so the brief forced assimilation that did occur was not allowed to pervade their shared culture (rather the culture of individual tribes...Im aware of the whole individual tribes thing)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpointian View Post
Their abject poverty, the worst in the US prior to the "Indian Casino" era, is direct evidence that they have NOT been able to live off their land.
Point well taken, and even in the Casino era only a few are actually wealthy enough to live comfortably. Aside from, as I said earlier, that many tribes couldnt live of the land because we killed off their most valuable resource, Indians were also unsuccessful living off the land because their agriculture operates in cycles/rotations, and they have not been allotted enough land to sustain the of rotation of crops.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpointian View Post
Destroying economic incentives has probably been more successful at destroying the black community than any post-slavery racism.
Said this a few posts ago...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpointian View Post
"But because blacks were an integral part of this country's entrepreneurship, and the only race who could sustain the workmanship required to maintain cheap labor, coupled with the fact that early blacks found themselves in a foreign climate, with foreign soil types, it was vital that blacks be indoctrinated just enough to feel the need to remain a part of this nation's infrastructure, yet be disenfranchised enough not to possess any financial power in this country."

Sorry, this is racial fantasizing and historical revisionism.


Blacks were brought into the Americas starting in the 14th century for one thing and one thing only free and productive labour. They were not treated as human but as beasts of burden. Workmanship has nothing to do with it.
It started with the Portuguese and the importation of Blacks to work sugar plantations. Eventually, that went to tobacco and then to cotton.



Err um, how is this "racial fantasizing (not sure thats an actual term but ok) and historical revisionism" when, the lifeblood and achilles tendon of this nation has ALWAYS been access to cheap labor. - I said blacks were the only race who could sustain the workmanship required to maintain cheap labor because they were...The prevailing class initially attempted to use a couple of other ethicities for cheap labor including Native Americans, but the Indians would not work and held a spiritual bond to the land that restricted them from pillaging the land unnecessarily...Workmanship and work ethic has EVERYTHING TO DO WITH IT...No offense intended but maybe YOU ought to catch up on some reading yourself....lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpointian View Post
Foreign climates and soil types? What? They were imported to work the land. Not only was their soil knowledge irrelevant but probably discouraged as was most forms of education. By the time they were freed, no memory whatsoever of soil conditions in Africa would have applied to the vast majority of freed-slaves.
Im not sure if you are trying to engage in some sort of paradoxical gamesmanship or what. If so your efforts of enlightenment are dearly appreciated.

This was my point though, Africans had no knowledge of the American climate or soil type...and it is in no way irrelevant. If blacks had been allowed to subsist on their own (farm, and institute their own economy of trade and production). Win, lose, or draw, they may have been largely independent as the Native Americans became, and therefore WOULD be liable for their own progression...Had blacks failed at this, this would have been one of the few scenarios where posing the question - Whats "wrong" with blacks, but not so and so? - would have been slightly more applicable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpointian View Post
Indoctrination assumes a doctrine that had to be re-taught. This was not the case. Slaves were dehumanized, families broken apart and traded. The only doctrine that might remain after such a process is religion.
Again, this is my point...Religion, though Im no religious fanatic, has long been speculated to be a control mechanism used to manipulate slaves (or really ANY underclass of people even during the Renaissance Era in Europe). Also by indoctrination, I mean that blacks once allowed to learn, did not learn of their own culture, and when they finally did it was not taught from their perspective...this IS indoctrination...perhaps not your definition, but it certainly is indoctrination.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpointian View Post
One, this did not happen with the Native Americans.

Two, native Americans placed on reservations were largely from single tribes and were able to continue many of their traditions. One of slavery's great tragedies is that ethnic identities were stripped. All we know is the vast major of Black slaves came from West Africa. No single language would have been obvious.
Um, 1) Yes it did happen...Tribes were allotted their own territories and were thus allowed to continue their native language and folkways...



However, I agree, and that is MY point...Land was never allocated to blacks, nor was their culture (Language) allowed to proliferate itself beyond song and dance.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpointian View Post
I agree...but there is no choice. This has nothing to do with racism, but economic reality. People barely have time to care about their own. Blacks cannot rely on the moral imperative of others to right their ship. To do so is suicide.

Glad we agree, but I dont think I implied that it had anything to do with racism...I simply insist that we keep everything in its historical context...I merely argue for the acknowledgment of the historically documented deprivation of education/institutional entities, and the institutionalized disintegration of the Black family over multiple generations in this country...I have no problem conceding that the black culture is in peril unparalleled. Nor do I have a problem acknowledging that TODAY racism is probably the most irrelevant and minimal obstacle present day blacks have to face. At the same time, I would appreciate the retention of some sort of historical context if the question is truly "Whats 'Wrong' with Blacks but not Asian"



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpointian View Post
Unfortunately, your own bitterness has removed all sympathy for the plight of others. The plight of Jews since the Crusades has alternated between acceptance and genocide. They are who they are largely because they chose to survive in the nooks and crannies left to them.
Unfortunately your own presumptiousness seems to have led you to completely disregard the fact that I stated multiple pages ago that I cannot and will not address the Biblical implications of the Jewish plight...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpointian View Post
As for the Asians, I tell you, you had best read your history. Many Asians in America survived decades of systematic exclusion. Treated as dirt and subhuman. No, they were no enslaved, and yes that is a huge difference, but to dismiss their experiences is incredibly ignorant.

I tell YOU what, you had better re-read what I actually wrote...Im not dismissing their experiences but what IS foolish and irresponsible is attempting to parallel a few decades of a HANDFUL of Asians who endured systematic exclusion with multiple generations of a culture who endured centuries of familial disintegration, institutionalized economic and educational deprivation INSIDE the country which they are expected to thrive...that is on an even more ignorant trajectory than that of which I am accused of being.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpointian View Post
If your POV is the rule rather than the exception, then the challenge before Black America is perhaps greater than I would have thought. Blacks are currently 38% of non-Hispanic Whites. Projections are that by 2050, this number will be 28%. This suggests that as time unfolds, the non-White experience will be increasingly defined by non-Blacks, namely Hispanics and Asians. Denigrating the suffering of others is a sure fire race to the bottom and will not help the Black cause whatsoever.

S.
Rest assured that scarcely anyone (aside from perhaps yourself) has the time and even fewer have the concern to care about whether the challenge that confronts Black America is what you projected it to be. My suggestion would be to quit guessing. Pragmatically it is counterproductive to sit around writhing over each individual's outlook/POV on the challenges facing Black America, ambitiously hoping that it isnt representative of the aggregate. But what I readily acknowledge is that Black Americans have been at an ethical and spiritual crossroads for the better part of the past 3 decades..and they need to be the ones to initiate a change.

Surely, in time and with due diligence, you will come to acknowledge that from the OUTSET I have stated in this thread that I dont wish to minimize NOR set forth a competition between the plights of Blacks and Whites, and Jews, and Hispanics, and Native Americans, etc.

I said it from the outset...I have unbridled antipathy for this back and forth woe is my culture mess. And, I dont think the disparagement of ANY culture or that of their plight is acceptable. Simultaneously I abhor the detachment of historical context when discussing the tenured and unique experience of blacks in this nation.

I have also put forth before that despite the fact that racism has always been an omnipresent facet of the black experience in this country, it is evermore becoming less so. And the days of blacks waxing poetic about the present obstacles imposed upon them by "da white man" need to quickly cease. But, it is pointless for those of us who really only know OF the black experience, but do not KNOW the black experience, to sit back and put forth these provocative and ostentatious comparisons between the Black culture in this country and the experience of other ethnicities without regard to the far reaching complexities of the black and white historical interactions that have brought us to this point.

Last edited by solytaire; 06-02-2009 at 12:11 AM..
 
Old 06-02-2009, 01:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarqueseGilmore View Post
My argument isnt about getting ahead. Most black folk get ahead just fine. My argument is that whites and Non-blacks dont understand the scars we have. Its about the reality of the situation. We werent brought to America by freewill. Consider that before anything.......and then you have to consider that the majority of black people have lived the recession since birth. The problem isnt us not working hard. The problem is whites make double of a black that is working the same job........and I'm talking about before the "worlds" recession for arguments sake. We dont want to be victims but the reality of the situation is that we are. Victims of Opression,Victims of institutionalized racism,Victims of kidnapping,Victims of brainwash,Victims of cultural molestation.........

Please before anyone has another "Ignorant" discussion about blacks.............Read "Miseducation of the negro","Post Traumatic Slave syndrome and "Jim Lynch letters"
At this point, I'm not looking for whites and non-black minorities to understand the scars and pain, just don't undermine it when I explain it in my life. But in addition, I know that I'm not looking to be a victim all of my life, and to that I say this:

There are blacks who really Really REALLY want to move on and see a better future (particularly African immigrants and non-stereotypical Black Americans), but there are places where whites and other non-blacks will always see all blacks as inferior, either through "white/at-least-I'm-not-black superiority perspective" like in the Deep South and some parts of the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic, or the "white guilt perspective" seen heavily in the Northeast and some other uber-liberal areas; just because they feel sorry for blacks doesn't mean they see (or for that matter want see blacks) equal to them. As for the blacks who want to move on beyond the victim/thug/anti-intellectualism mentality of most other blacks, I say move to places that 1) Don't have an excessive amount of blacks hung up on such self-enslaving mentalities and 2) Don't have whites and other non-blacks hung up on the condition of blacks, in EITHER perspective (which mainly narrows it down to mostly states and cities west of the Mississippi River). For those who traveled, notice the areas that don't have a history of excessively oppressing nor feeling sorry for blacks (Seattle, Denver, Austin, San Antonio, Las Vegas, Albuquerque, Minneapolis, Phoenix, San Diego, Portland, Honolulu, and even places like Reno, Boise, Spokane, Anchorage, Tuscon, Santa Fe, El Paso, Salt Lake City, and Des Moines) and look at the situation of blacks in those places compared to most of the cities where blacks are visible. Even though the blacks are few in number, the quality of life overall is much better for them than for their counterparts in cities on the East Coast, Rustbelt, and Southeast. Its been forty years since the passing of the Civil Rights Act, and all east of the Mississippi has to show for it are Columbus OH, Hampton Roads, Tampa, Raleigh, and SOME parts of Miami (Fort Lauderdale), Washington DC (Northern VA), NY Tri-State (Montclair NJ) and Atlanta (mainly a few middle class all-black neighborhoods in the Atlanta suburbs and fewer racially integrated places I don't know about because of not visiting the area since I was two). That alone should show you where blacks who are over the suffering (or at least are trying/ready to get over it) should be heading to!
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