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Old 06-02-2009, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh but I'm ready to relocate......
727 posts, read 1,650,835 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpointian View Post
Hi Marquese,

Unfortunately, the stats suggest the opposite for the average individual. For the "survivors," this is the golden age thus far.



Agree...but...I think the % of sympathy is at an all time low and likely will not return. Harsh reality, but reality nonetheless. Reasons include increasing numbers of first-generation victims of racial hate that have immigrated to the US, the removal of the worst institutional impediments, the hundreds of billions spent thus far with little returns, if not negative. And yes, in some pockets, racism.

There are two dimensions here that have to be separated. One, is acknowledgement from non-Blacks (this is something Blacks cannot control). The other is what to do to pull oneself out of the poverty trap, this is something that only Blacks can truly control. Never the twain shall meet.

Satisfaction is largely a function of expectations. Expect little and anything received is greatly appreciated. Right now, my my read of national politics, expectations of righting the wrong are very high. And the failure of non-Black America to fully restore matters (the extent of which is subject to a lengthy debate) adds to bitter dissatisfaction. Safe to say, a general bewilderment among many as to why slavery remains such a hot button issue.

Again, that its legacy remains should be clear. But what to do about it? Here a dramatic shift in expectations is warranted. It HAS to happen. If not, the deterioration of the Black community will persist and gentrification will continue the resegregation process that has been underway for quite some time.

S.
But who's stats are they? Who creates the stats?
Secondly I think in order to argue about my race....you should educate yourself. READ the books I listed and step your feet into our shoes before any discussion can start.

 
Old 06-02-2009, 02:43 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,087,903 times
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As an aside, and for future purposes of these ill conceived comparisons, to those who continue to parallel the experience of Blacks with that of Jews in this country...why not use a real standard of comparison and compare how well Jews would be doing today INSIDE the countries which held anti-Semitic laws for centuries and in which they were persecuted WITHOUT FOREIGN INTERVENTION, to how blacks, without the help of any foreign intervention, are doing in present day America (obviously, the country that persecuted them and institutionalized and endorsed the suppression of Black economic mobility)

That would be a more accurate comparison, instead of trying to upstage minorities by highlighting how well Jews are doing in this nation; a country that really didnt even have a LONG history of actively discriminating against the masses of its Jewish population until the 1900's, nor disintegrating Jewish culture and their families.

Lastly Jews as it pertains to modern history, largely migrated under their own volition to those areas in which they eventually faced anti semitism where the majority lived in their own enclaves, with their own customs/language in tact. That is not analogous to the black experience in this country. Apples and oranges folx...Again, the purpose of this statement is not to undermine the vicissitudes Jews have faced, nor is it to foster a competition between the ethnicities. But it is merely intended to illuminate the paucity of commonalities between the Jewish and Black experience, especially within the U.S. borders.

Last edited by solytaire; 06-02-2009 at 03:19 PM..
 
Old 06-02-2009, 06:21 PM
 
Location: British Columbia.
343 posts, read 1,231,755 times
Reputation: 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire View Post
Lastly Jews as it pertains to modern history, largely migrated under their own volition to those areas in which they eventually faced anti semitism where the majority lived in their own enclaves, with their own customs/language in tact. That is not analogous to the black experience in this country. Apples and oranges folx...Again, the purpose of this statement is not to undermine the vicissitudes Jews have faced, nor is it to foster a competition between the ethnicities. But it is merely intended to illuminate the paucity of commonalities between the Jewish and Black experience, especially within the U.S. borders.

I tend to agree with this statement. You can't compare apples and oranges.

People tend to forget that Jews and Many groups of Asians have a long history of education in their familes and small buisness ownership. Additionally most Non black minoriites arrived in the United States with intact families. The same cannot be said of African Americans. Slavery in the U.S. destroyed the roots of black families.
 
Old 06-02-2009, 08:31 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,087,903 times
Reputation: 1814
Quote:
Originally Posted by XXclimberX View Post
I tend to agree with this statement. You can't compare apples and oranges.

People tend to forget that Jews and Many groups of Asians have a long history of education in their familes and small buisness ownership. Additionally most Non black minorites arrived in the United States with intact families. The same cannot be said of African Americans. Slavery in the U.S. destroyed the roots of black families.
I agree, and lets just quietly discard the wealth of revenue Jews themselves made from the slave trade during the establishment of the "New World" themselves...I mean its not like that would have contributed disproportionally to their economic advancement, considering how one of their most lucrative sources of revenue in the western hemisphere was the navigation of slave ships...and capturing of runaway slaves...

Shhh...lets keep that under wraps though...its much more comforting to accept this canard that all Jews in the western world overcame similar oppression as other minorities, pulled themselves up by their bootstraps through good, honest elbow grease, to emerge as a well educated, financially prosperous, ethnic and religious underclass. And as such, they should be the paradigm of a resilient minority for other minorities who have endured oppression.

Last edited by solytaire; 06-02-2009 at 08:52 PM..
 
Old 06-02-2009, 08:54 PM
 
Location: Bayou City
2,991 posts, read 4,468,958 times
Reputation: 2496
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Fairfaxian View Post
At this point, I'm not looking for whites and non-black minorities to understand the scars and pain, just don't undermine it when I explain it in my life. But in addition, I know that I'm not looking to be a victim all of my life, and to that I say this:

There are blacks who really Really REALLY want to move on and see a better future (particularly African immigrants and non-stereotypical Black Americans), but there are places where whites and other non-blacks will always see all blacks as inferior, either through "white/at-least-I'm-not-black superiority perspective" like in the Deep South and some parts of the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic, or the "white guilt perspective" seen heavily in the Northeast and some other uber-liberal areas; just because they feel sorry for blacks doesn't mean they see (or for that matter want see blacks) equal to them. As for the blacks who want to move on beyond the victim/thug/anti-intellectualism mentality of most other blacks, I say move to places that 1) Don't have an excessive amount of blacks hung up on such self-enslaving mentalities and 2) Don't have whites and other non-blacks hung up on the condition of blacks, in EITHER perspective (which mainly narrows it down to mostly states and cities west of the Mississippi River). For those who traveled, notice the areas that don't have a history of excessively oppressing nor feeling sorry for blacks (Seattle, Denver, Austin, San Antonio, Las Vegas, Albuquerque, Minneapolis, Phoenix, San Diego, Portland, Honolulu, and even places like Reno, Boise, Spokane, Anchorage, Tuscon, Santa Fe, El Paso, Salt Lake City, and Des Moines) and look at the situation of blacks in those places compared to most of the cities where blacks are visible. Even though the blacks are few in number, the quality of life overall is much better for them than for their counterparts in cities on the East Coast, Rustbelt, and Southeast. Its been forty years since the passing of the Civil Rights Act, and all east of the Mississippi has to show for it are Columbus OH, Hampton Roads, Tampa, Raleigh, and SOME parts of Miami (Fort Lauderdale), Washington DC (Northern VA), NY Tri-State (Montclair NJ) and Atlanta (mainly a few middle class all-black neighborhoods in the Atlanta suburbs and fewer racially integrated places I don't know about because of not visiting the area since I was two). That alone should show you where blacks who are over the suffering (or at least are trying/ready to get over it) should be heading to!
I have to give you credit for this analysis, as I think it's dead on.

As a black man, I can say in good faith that in places like Denver, Seattle, San Diego and San Antonio, I generally never felt "racialized". It heartened me to be able for once to move freely about a society absent the tremendous burden my race would otherwise force me to carry in other environments. Also noticeably absent was that "self-enslaving mentality" you spoke of among fellow blacks. They just seemed to be a lot more laid back and less given to hostility and condescension than in most other areas. It was refreshing indeed.
 
Old 06-03-2009, 11:36 AM
 
Location: SXSW
640 posts, read 1,514,007 times
Reputation: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLangben View Post
A lot of asians actually migrated here, they were not all brought here by the white man to build railroads . As for why do asians wind up being successful? Culturally they are brought up to become successful. Inculturation is another strong factor as well, mostly if you parents are successful the children are taught to become successful too.

As for the explanation in the "achievement gap" prevalent in African Americans and Latinos, It isn't a cultural or race thing. Just plain economic differences.
I cannot speak for Black Americans, but for Latinos I will say that this country seems to make it a point to "recruit" the underclass of Latin America for purposes of needing a new slave class to pick their produce, be their nannies, and build their houses in 100+ heat. I find it nonsensical to think that you can invite the poorest and least educated from another country, many of whom I have found cannot even read or write correctly in SPANISH, and then expect them to suddenly become or breed whiz kids who will go to Harvard and make six figures a year. If the only reason certain Latino immigrants move here are to be de facto slaves, do you honestly think you're getting a segment of people with any modicum of middle class values, do you honestly believe they are not going to be myopic about things outside of what affects THEM? There is a small minority of Latino families who are "self-selected" and moved here and have done similar to any other American families that have moved here, but most "self-selected" immigrants come here with a mission other than "escape third world poverty in a country ruled by racist Mexican elite" and more like "complete doctorate in a hard science."
My father was a physics professor and at his university there were many other international students from Latin American countries like himself. The ONLY black colleagues he had were straight from Africa, not ONE was Black American. Self-selected immigrants are going to fare much better than those who were forced here by say, slave trade or who could cheaply walk across the border just to find someone who will give them work. Although Mexico is much wealthier than India, this country continues to get their cream of the crop because it takes alot of money and resources to get here from India (not to mention you must be somewhat intelligent and an english speaker to get a US company to hire you and sponsor your visa).
 
Old 06-03-2009, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Mequon, WI
7,678 posts, read 18,905,816 times
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Quote:
but for Latinos I will say that this country seems to make it a point to "recruit" the underclass of Latin America for purposes of needing a new slave class to pick their produce, be their nannies, and build their houses in 100+ heat.
First off, nobody is being recruited to be a slave in America. Last time I checked they came over here on their own because their own country has more problems than a Ford. they made their choice to come here. Where do you get this weird conspiracy theory that we are recruiting Latinos to pick our produce and since when was picking produce a bad job or a nanny or a home builder?

Quote:
Although Mexico is much wealthier than India, this country continues to get their cream of the crop because it takes a lot of money and resources to get here from India
Yeah their own money or they did well enough in India to get a scholarship fund.

Quote:
not to mention you must be somewhat intelligent and an English speaker to get a US company to hire you and sponsor your visa
Yeah I imagine if I moved to Mexico I would have to speak Spanish to get a good job, are we not allowed to have requirements anymore or standards? Why would a company hire a dumb person who cannot speak the same language of their customers?

Hang on, I have to grab some cheese for you.

Quote:
but for Latinos I will say that this country seems to make it a point to "recruit" the underclass of Latin America
So then the brightest and best must still be in Latin America and since the underclass is shrinking in Latin America their economy must be great with nothing but the best of the best in Latin America so why is everyone leaving Latin America if only the best of the best are still there? why aren't American's immigrating there instead of Europe?

As America why is it bad to want the best of the best immigrants? wouldn't that mean better workers which means better growth for companies which in turns hires more people and helps companies expand into different areas of American and overseas as well? Maybe those best of the best start their own companies and wouldn't that be good also?

That's it I'm out!
 
Old 06-03-2009, 01:33 PM
 
Location: SXSW
640 posts, read 1,514,007 times
Reputation: 607
I'm not really sure what the point behind your post was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milwaukee City View Post
First off, nobody is being recruited to be a slave in America. Last time I checked they came over here on their own because their own country has more problems than a Ford. they made their choice to come here. Where do you get this weird conspiracy theory that we are recruiting Latinos to pick our produce and since when was picking produce a bad job or a nanny or a home builder?
Yes, like I said, they come here because things are very dire in their respective countries. My point is that the pretenses of them coming here are very different than that of self selected immigrants. It is disingenuous to think that they are going to do as well. They are similar to a slave class in how they are treated by society and how they are paid, and even though they come here willingly, the REASON they come here is due to the terrible poverty in their countries, not because say, a US company is inviting them to do so. I say "recruit" because it is not news that many American business owners will pick an illegal immigrant over an American teenager time and time again. I am addressing the fact that for a very long time until recently they were not "recruited" per se, but the American goverment would look the other way while American business owners hired illegal immigrants, many of whom come from lowest socioeconomic rungs of Latin America, namely Mexico.They are sought out for their low wages and their propensity for unskilled hard work. Read a few articles in the illegal immigration section, and you will see what I am talking about. I even read one where illegal immigrants were being hired to be airplane mechanics, even if they couldn't speak English. Jobs are not taken, they are given, and some businesses seem to seek out the certain populations to give those jobs to.

One thing I forgot to mention is that one reason Asian immigrants do very well here is that there are relatively fewer of them than say, Mexican immigrants. Although they are also communities of Asians all around the United States, there are simply fewer numbers of Asians, period. If you are surrounded by the majority, you have no choice but to assimilate.

This article in general sums up my entire point behind my other post, but I'll point out the following:
"We're in a state where there's nothing but Americans. The police control the streets. It's clean, no gangs. California now resembles Mexico -- everyone thinks like in Mexico. California's broken."
Justina was the last to leave Los Angeles, about the time Angela was pregnant with the triplets.
She and her husband wanted better schools for their sons, 15 and 9.
In Lexington, she said, "at the school there are just people who speak English. It's helped my children a lot."


Quote:
Yeah I imagine if I moved to Mexico I would have to speak Spanish to get a good job, are we not allowed to have requirements anymore or standards? Why would a company hire a dumb person who cannot speak the same language of their customers?

Hang on, I have to grab some cheese for you.
What does this have to do with anything?

Quote:
So then the brightest and best must still be in Latin America and since the underclass is shrinking in Latin America their economy must be great with nothing but the best of the best in Latin America so why is everyone leaving Latin America if only the best of the best are still there? why aren't American's immigrating there instead of Europe?

As America why is it bad to want the best of the best immigrants? wouldn't that mean better workers which means better growth for companies which in turns hires more people and helps companies expand into different areas of American and overseas as well? Maybe those best of the best start their own companies and wouldn't that be good also?

That's it I'm out!
You seem really antagonistic when I largely agree with you. It is not wrong to want the best immigrants, really any country that wants to be successful does that. Off the top of my head, I can think of two highly skilled Mexican nurses, a Columbian math professor and a friend from Argentina who graduated from Cambridge who have been caught up in a mess of immigration bureaucracy (the math professor was even denied a visa for some reason and has since moved to Canada), yet this country will allow huge masses of unskilled labor in instead. I find it frustrating that this country wonders why it is having such a hard time with its Latino immigrants when its businesses seem to go out of its way to give jobs to Latin America's poorest and least educated for the sake of keeping its overhead low.
As for Latin America, it is a world with a large degree of race/class stratification, where racism and denial of racism is rampant, and everything is done to protect the status quo of the whitest and most elite ruling its respective countries. Some may say that this is similar to America, but at least America has the luxury of a large middle class (not to mention a civil rights movement), and Latin America cant seem to create a middle class to save its life. And the Mexican elite cant be bothered with the plight of their poorest, they have to go shopping today. Life there is okay if you are part of the tiny tiny middle class or the rich. Truly, had my father choosen to stay we would have done fine, but my dad was young, idealistic and had a full ride as an international student to study physics, so now I'm here. I'm quite culturally American at this point, so I tend not to view things solely through the lens of Hispanic activists who want open borders immigration. As evidenced by my quote above, the crazy amount of underclass immigration from Latin America (which has been propelled by the American businesses that hire them) has hindered their progress here greatly by creating communities where they only live among themselves.

By the way, bringing in large sweeps of low skilled immigrants is not new to America (see: Irish laborers and digging canals in the 1800's, the Chinese and transcontinental railroads in the 1850's). However, America then was not driven by the higher skilled service-oriented economy it is today so to drive unskilled immigration into the country seems like dim thinking, but then again I'm first generation American, perhaps this is part of the weird "conspiracy" I was talking about.

Last edited by simpleharmonicmotion; 06-03-2009 at 01:45 PM..
 
Old 06-03-2009, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Mequon, WI
7,678 posts, read 18,905,816 times
Reputation: 4139
Quote:
You seem really antagonistic when I largely agree with you.
It could be when two people debate these tough topics they often try to convey a point but rush through and think about what their saying. I'm not saying your doing this but tough topics on boards like these often become misconstrued b/c lack of tone. I usually don't post on these topics b/c people often get misinterpreted.

To make it plain and simple: People need to stop making excuses and start working for a better future for their family and country.
 
Old 06-03-2009, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Bayou City
2,991 posts, read 4,468,958 times
Reputation: 2496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milwaukee City View Post
It could be when two people debate these tough topics they often try to convey a point but rush through and think about what their saying. I'm not saying your doing this but tough topics on boards like these often become misconstrued b/c lack of tone. I usually don't post on these topics b/c people often get misinterpreted.

To make it plain and simple: People need to stop making excuses and start working for a better future for their family and country.
Then why even start a thread with such a provocative title as this in the first place? Doesn't make sense to me.
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