U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 07-12-2009, 09:26 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,087,903 times
Reputation: 1814

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
I'm already aware that some people have their minds made up about me and would rather use the stereotype as the rule. Personally, it irks me. I understand why it is done. One has to understand why stereotypes came about. It gives people an excuse to deny certain people human dignity.

Yeah I agree that it is unfortunate that people stereotype each culture. I understand your angle and I wasnt trying to chide you for your comment. But I agree that putting forth these stereotypes and running with them, is only an excuse for people to deprive others of equality. Some of the same stereotypes we see in todays society were very instrumental, historically, in erecting the structure of race relations as we observe them today.

 
Old 07-13-2009, 11:29 AM
 
532 posts, read 1,064,360 times
Reputation: 501
To simplify the whole debate: The quesion at hand is what shapes a man, nature vs. nurture? Nurture of course, food for thought:

Example 1: If you had 100 succesful and nurturing couples adopt 4 babies each, an Asian, AA, Hispanic and a white kid, and raise them as their own, you would have 400 kids of varying intellect achieving varying degrees of success or failure in life. Does anyone here think that the whites and Asian kids would generally be succesful while the blacks and hispanics would face a road of poverty and crime?

Example 2: If you took 100 babies born to couples of nurturing middle class white or Asian families and exchanged them with 100 AA and Hispanic babies born into poverty. Do you think the 200 kids would grow up to follow current demographic poverty/success trends or would the white kids be in jail more frequently while the black kids apply for college?

Nature is subordinant to nurture, no question.
 
Old 07-13-2009, 12:38 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,087,903 times
Reputation: 1814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks View Post
...and that answer is that blacks who have lived here for generations are just accustomed to failing?
lol..close but no cigar...the answer is that present day blacks who's families have been here for generations have been passed down the de emphasis on education and the unimportance of family structure that was exacted upon their ancestors. Ingrained in a large portion of the black culture is an acceptance of single parenthood, out of wedlock births, undereducation and so forth.

They have become ingrained in the black culture because those were the ways that were permitted and imposed upon blacks through generations of deprivation to regular components of social function from the outset in this country.

* Out of Wedlock births/Promiscuity - Stems from a lineage in which the black family structure was of NO importance to this society. During this nation's infancy Blacks were mixed, matched, and families torn asunder, through negligent and selective breeding with little regard nor respect for their family structures. Slave traders cast this lot among scores of black families, and it was an ongoing practice for multiple generations. Without going any further into the ramifications of that process, children cannot grow up without witnessing any sort of binding family structure and be expected to assume and place emphasis on fulfilling the role of model parents themselves, when they come of age...Examine any family who's structure is broken (not only that of blacks) and it becomes clear that a cohesive family structure IS vital to teaching parental responsibility to offspring

* Lack of education/Unequal education - Blacks faced denial of this right of socio economic progression from the outset as well. Again, the denial to and the subsequent de-emphasis on education of blacks (by both white and black members of this nation) in this country was an obstacle FOR SEVERAL GENERATIONS of blacks. And that subsequent de emphasis on education has become ingrained in the mindset of portions of the black culture to date.

There are other aspects of society that have aided in ingraining social substandards into the psyche of blacks via things like the feminist movement, the induction of a govt. sponsored drug culture into predominately black areas, gentrification etc.

But those are just a couple of ways that the bulk of a demographic can be affected by multiple generations of race based discrimination/exclusion (unequal education) and slavery (the destruction of a cohesive family structure, later exacerbated by the feminist movement.).

I say all of that to say this: Whatever effect those things had on the black culture...and regardless of how deep those scars DO run...It IS time for blacks to tighten their belts and just flat out find a way to: define their own cultural identity, aggressively pursue education, renew their emphasis on responsible parenthood and improve the culture..regardless of the predjudices and stereotypes other races bestow upon them.

It must be done by the black community and it must be done in the sole interest of bettering the black community; NOT, however, in appeasement of this nation's prevailing culture, NOR in pursuit of dispulsion of stereotypes.

Last edited by solytaire; 07-13-2009 at 01:25 PM..
 
Old 07-13-2009, 12:40 PM
 
44,571 posts, read 43,103,689 times
Reputation: 14376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burb View Post
To simplify the whole debate: The quesion at hand is what shapes a man, nature vs. nurture? Nurture of course, food for thought:

Example 1: If you had 100 succesful and nurturing couples adopt 4 babies each, an Asian, AA, Hispanic and a white kid, and raise them as their own, you would have 400 kids of varying intellect achieving varying degrees of success or failure in life. Does anyone here think that the whites and Asian kids would generally be succesful while the blacks and hispanics would face a road of poverty and crime?

Example 2: If you took 100 babies born to couples of nurturing middle class white or Asian families and exchanged them with 100 AA and Hispanic babies born into poverty. Do you think the 200 kids would grow up to follow current demographic poverty/success trends or would the white kids be in jail more frequently while the black kids apply for college?

Nature is subordinant to nurture, no question.
It depends on the parents. If the parents show them love and caring, teach them that education is the avenue to success,to ignore the stereotypes set for them and go after their dreams, then most likely, the children will get the message. Nurture can conquer nature. It is part of human nature to stereotype? Sure. Can you teach a person to ignore the stereotypes and to go after his/her dreams? Yes you can. My grandparents barely had an 8th grade education. They left the cotton fields of Mississippi for better opportunities in the northern industrial cities, specifically Milwaukee,WI. My father was born in Milwaukee. His parents gave him love and they worked to provide a good home for their children. They owned their own home. My father came from working class roots. His parents taught him that he needed to get his education to get something better in life than what they had. My father listened and graduated from high school, then went on to college. He got a bachelor's degree and then a master's degree. He doesn't have to work in the cotton fields or in the steel mills messing with metal with his hands. He does his work on the computers. Nature vs. nurture? Nurture won on this. His parents nurtured him and encouraged him to get educated. He did just that. Many families do not nurture their children and encourage them to get an education. How do you keep a kid from falling into the stereotypes or accepting the stereotypes as the rule? You nurture them, you educate them. My parents weren't watching BET. They didn't accept the stereotypes set forth for them. Neither did I. I knew I wasn't anything like the persons on BET or MTV. I didn't strive to be them in high school. I strived to have a college education, to have a nice home, to read books, to listen to classical music and I know some other African-Americans who have done the same. Many of them are either in college or have graduated from college. Nature vs. Nurture. That only works with animals. A black person or a hispanic person is more likely to have a harder road ahead because of the stereotypes set out for them and the expectations set forth. To be honest, many people do not expect blacks and hispanics to do well in life. The solution:up the expectations, start asking for more.
 
Old 07-13-2009, 12:45 PM
 
Location: I think my user name clarifies that.
8,293 posts, read 22,457,074 times
Reputation: 3868
Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire View Post
It must be done by the black community and it must be done in the sole interest of bettering the black community; NOT, however, in appeasement of this nation's prevailing culture, NOR in pursuit of dispelling stereotypes.
To save space I'm not quoting your entire post, though I think I totally agree.

The answers to current Black problems in America are going to have to come from Black Americans themselves. And they have to stop thinking/acting as though making good choices is "appeasing da man," because it's not.

Every single one of us is responsible for our own choices and actions. We can't change the past, and we have to decide whether the past is going to determine our future, or if WE are going to determine our future.
 
Old 07-13-2009, 12:49 PM
 
44,571 posts, read 43,103,689 times
Reputation: 14376
Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire View Post
lol..close but no cigar...the answer is that present day blacks who's families have been here for generations have been passed down the de emphasis on education and the unimportance of family structure that was exacted upon their ancestors. Ingrained in a large portion of the black culture is a acceptance of single parenthood, out of wedlock births, undereducation and so forth.

They have become ingrained in the black culture because those were the ways that were permitted and imposed upon blacks through generations of deprivation to regular components of social function from the outset in this country.

* Out of Wedlock births/Promiscuity - Stems from a lineage in which the black family structure was of NO importance to this society. During this nation's infancy Blacks were mixed, matched, and families torn asunder, through negligent and selective breeding with little regard nor respect for their family structures. Slave traders cast this lot among scores of black families, and it was an ongoing practice for multiple generations. Without going any further into the ramifications of that process, children cannot grow up without witnessing any sort of binding family structure and be expected to assume and place emphasis on fulfilling the role of model parents themselves, when they come of age...Examine any family who's structure is broken (not only that of blacks) and it becomes clear that a cohesive family structure IS vital to teaching parental responsibility to offspring

* Lack of education/Unequal education - Blacks faced denial of this right of socio economic progression from the outset as well. Again, the denial to and the subsequent de-emphasis on education of blacks (by both white and black members of this nation) in this country was an obstacle FOR SEVERAL GENERATIONS of blacks. And that subsequent de emphasis on education has become ingrained in the mindset of portions of the black culture to date.

There are other aspects of society that have aided in ingraining social substandards into the psyche of blacks via things like the feminist movement, the induction of a govt. sponsored drug culture into predominately black areas, gentrification etc.

But those are just a couple of ways that the bulk of a demographic can be affected by multiple generations of race based discrimination (unequal education) and slavery (the destruction of a cohesive family structure, later exacerbated by the feminist movement.) will effect an entire culture

I say all of that to say this: Whatever effect those things had on the black culture...and regardless of how deep those scars DO run...It IS time for blacks to tighten their belts and just flat out find a way to: define their own culture, aggressively pursue education, renew their emphasis on responsible parenthood and improve the culture..regardless of the predjudices and stereotypes other races bestow upon them.

It must be done by the black community and it must be done in the sole interest of bettering the black community; NOT, however, in appeasement of this nation's prevailing culture, NOR in pursuit of dispelling stereotypes.
It could not have been said much better than what you just said. You have just explained the reason why blacks in America have the issues they have today. It is very historical and entrenched. The scars do run deep. I think it is time(or past the time) that blacks in America started asking for better from themselves collectively. My take on it: "this is what was done to blacks, the results of that are long suffering. Now it is time to reverse that suffering. It is time to stop being victims and start solving problems."
 
Old 07-13-2009, 01:23 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,087,903 times
Reputation: 1814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks View Post
To save space I'm not quoting your entire post, though I think I totally agree.

The answers to current Black problems in America are going to have to come from Black Americans themselves. And they have to stop thinking/acting as though making good choices is "appeasing da man," because it's not.

Every single one of us is responsible for our own choices and actions. We can't change the past, and we have to decide whether the past is going to determine our future, or if WE are going to determine our future.
I am in complete agreement with most of your sentiment. BUT to the contrary, I think it is CRITICAL that the psychology of appeasement be consciously removed from the black psyche. Because for generations the black culture has done an INCREDIBLE job of assimilating from ground zero (meaning with no original cultural ties to the western world, yet prohibited from proliferating their own culture, language and cultural norms, in addition to being excluded from several social institutions that encourage heightened social behavior and economic progression)

..but Blacks have done an INCREDIBLE job of assimilating to the societal standard despite their obstacles. But the assimilation also exacted a mentality of appeasement. Appeasement becomes dangerous because it removes personal responsibility for ones action. Simply because in this Judeo Christian western nation we embrace marriage does not mean that Blacks are obligated to embrace marriage. Just as other cultures have their standards, blacks should have their own. Obligation to one's family should no doubt be a foremost standard in any culture, BUT because the foundation was never set for the black culture to engage in nor appreciate the value in committed relationships, that standard, and its variables should be examined and then set by the cultural norms of blacks...not in appeasement of a western ideology.

Im not saying there is anything wrong with our Judeo Christian values, but the reality is that much of what blacks do in this nation DOES stem from appeasement and not a true awareness of a set of cultural standards to which they hold themselves like each other culture has its own standards.

For example: Such a simple thing as the acceptance of the english language and the willingness to learn it TO ANY DEGREE is a form of appeasement. If anyone notices, other cultures who come to this nation, often times, do not even bother to compromise practicing their native tongue much less try to learn english to its fullest extent. Yet it is blacks who are most likely to be highlighted for speaking 'ebonics'. It is because blacks are expected to and until very recently have accepted the responsibility of appeasing and assimilating to the predominate culture.

Last edited by solytaire; 07-13-2009 at 01:41 PM..
 
Old 07-13-2009, 01:40 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,087,903 times
Reputation: 1814
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
I think it is time(or past the time) that blacks in America started asking for better from themselves collectively. My take on it: "this is what was done to blacks, the results of that are long suffering. Now it is time to reverse that suffering. It is time to stop being victims and start solving problems."
Precisely...Great point...BUT this does not suggest that the black culture should become punching bags for every other race who wish to highlight it's indignities. Because when that is done, things become taken out of context...and we devolve back to this antiquated and ill-conceived notion that 'Blacks are just naturally athletic and hormone driven...while other races are more pensive and intellectual...simple as that' -- that school of thought gets dangerous and ignorant, very quickly..and is actually more regressive for race relations than anyone bringing up past grievances.

That is why I will never completely remove the past from the current equation..because, honestly, as soon as we choose to gloss over the past, too many opportunistic bigots seize the opportunity to justify their stereotyping and prejudices of one race, through outdated theories such as gentoypical variations.

So I WILL continue to put things into a more befitting context. I will not, however, justify the CONTINUATION OF personal irresponsibility through focusing on past transgressions.

Last edited by solytaire; 07-13-2009 at 02:09 PM..
 
Old 07-13-2009, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Rogers, AR
481 posts, read 807,841 times
Reputation: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
It could not have been said much better than what you just said. You have just explained the reason why blacks in America have the issues they have today. It is very historical and entrenched. The scars do run deep. I think it is time(or past the time) that blacks in America started asking for better from themselves collectively. My take on it: "this is what was done to blacks, the results of that are long suffering. Now it is time to reverse that suffering. It is time to stop being victims and start solving problems."
Are you saying then that only African Americans need to be a part of creating that solution? Because when I hear people saying "stop being a victim" what I really hear is "it's your problem, not mine. you fix it." Personally I think we all need to do are part to fix the problem. I find it appaulling to think that a historicity created by a whole society over centuries, is now laid at the feet of the oppressed to fix alone. Isn't that convenient?
 
Old 07-13-2009, 06:47 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,087,903 times
Reputation: 1814
Quote:
Originally Posted by culturedmom View Post
Are you saying then that only African Americans need to be a part of creating that solution? Because when I hear people saying "stop being a victim" what I really hear is "it's your problem, not mine. you fix it." Personally I think we all need to do are part to fix the problem. I find it appaulling to think that a historicity created by a whole society over centuries, is now laid at the feet of the oppressed to fix alone. Isn't that convenient?

lol...very interesting way of putting it...but you're right..that is one of the interpretations that can be made from the phrase "Stop being a victim"...Truthfully at this stage in this country's chronology blacks can no more "stop being a victim" then whites can stop being the victimizer...the wheels were set in motion long before what we see today had manifested itself.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top