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Old 05-22-2009, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,766,418 times
Reputation: 4539

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Quote:
Originally Posted by davey123 View Post
I mentioned before that I am pro-choice. Nevertheless, I need to say this. Dcashley, I think that you are painting with very broad strokes. Your over-generalizations are detracting from your main argument. If a person believes that "pro-choice is allowing murder -- and have not adopted," does that really have to be a contradiction? I mean, that person may not have the financial resources to adopt any children. They may care that there are several children looking for families to adopt them. However, they may not be well-positioned to adopt the child themselves.

Couldn't that be a possibility?
I do have financial resources to adopt along with everything else mentioned.

I'll make a deal - if abortion is banned, I'll adopt.
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Old 05-22-2009, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,766,418 times
Reputation: 4539
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerboy View Post
Just as a point of information there is no right at common law to shoot to kill someone who breaks into your house.
Not at common law, but there is a statutory right in many states, including mine.
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Old 05-22-2009, 04:50 PM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
3,196 posts, read 4,716,763 times
Reputation: 976
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
I do have financial resources to adopt along with everything else mentioned.

I'll make a deal - if abortion is banned, I'll adopt.
Good for you...but in the meantime--what about the unwanted children that remain behind?
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Old 05-22-2009, 05:01 PM
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
10,336 posts, read 9,982,800 times
Reputation: 9090
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerboy View Post
It is natural to try to bridge pro choice and pro life as some have tried to do here but is it intellectually inconsistent except and only if one is a libertarinan anarchist who believes in no social laws at all. ...
As I say except for the anarcho libertarian who supports no laws limiting behaviour this circle simply cannot be squared.
I am close to that which you refer (libertarinan anarchist). But your statement that such people do not support any laws limiting behaviour is incorrect. We believe in laws that limit the actions of anyone who would deny others their own free agency. No, we do not believe in laws that limit what two or ten or a hundred consenting adults do amongst themselves, be it 'good,' 'bad,' or self destructive. We believe morals are the domain of the individual, not the government. The government is there for national security and the defense of personal freedom--and that is pretty much it. Any social, economic, or moral model is left to the individual and/or his/her community. You can be as conservative or liberal as you like, live in a commune or alone on the prairie as you choose. Any moral difficulty or obligation you may have is between you and your 'higher being' (whomever that might be and assuming you have one).

I realize it doesn’t work like that in our ‘real world’ now. But it should. That sort of freedom seems to scare a lot of folks. The way it applies personally with me and this abortion issue is something like this: No, I don't think abortion is at all a good choice in almost every situation. But I also feel that each person has the right to decide for themselves. What I personally believe or think may not be universal, thus the free agency idea. You decide. You live with the consequences of your choice.

As for the matter of the rights of the fetus being aborted... yes, you may have a point there. The problem is, we can't seem to decide just where to draw the line of a fetus being a sentient being.

Last edited by ChrisC; 05-22-2009 at 05:32 PM..
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Old 05-22-2009, 06:07 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,556,197 times
Reputation: 35864
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
I believe that abortion is murder and, thus, would support any attempts to ban it. I can't accept the logic that we should simply leave it up to her and her doctor.

The reason I support the rape and life of the mother exceptions is:

1) Rape - She had no say in becoming pregnant.

.
How does that reduce the entitlement of the fetus to live, and make it less than murder to kill itt?
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Old 05-22-2009, 06:31 PM
 
Location: California
29,597 posts, read 31,914,576 times
Reputation: 24735
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
I believe that abortion is murder and, thus, would support any attempts to ban it. I can't accept the logic that we should simply leave it up to her and her doctor.

The reason I support the rape and life of the mother exceptions is:

1) Rape - She had no say in becoming pregnant. I'm unwilling to support forcing a woman to go through a pregnancy if she had no choice at all. I do think that this exception should apply only in the first trimester.

2) Life of the mother - I wouldn't support legislatively forcing anyone to give up their life for anyone else, for obvious reasons.

Ok, I'm confused. You just admitted you were pro choice in case of rape or life of the mother. Go back and reread my post. You say you "can't accept" that a women and her Dr should be the ones to decide anything regarding her pregnancy, her life, or her wellbeing (unless they were raped) despite the fact that there can be all sorts of things going on that would make it the worst idea ever, things you will never be privy to. AND dispite the fact that once the baby is born you have no say with what the woman does with it or to it. That's a short sighted and and arrogant position to take dontcha think?

Once a woman is pregnant there can be only ONE person in charge, and that's the one who's already walking around.
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Old 05-22-2009, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
3,196 posts, read 4,716,763 times
Reputation: 976
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcashley View Post
Good for you...but in the meantime--what about the unwanted children that remain behind?
Why doesn't anyone care about the unwanted children born as a result of her mother being convinced by pro-lifers to have the child? We have a problem of giant porpotions NNOW--why doesn't anyone care enough to open their homes and hearts to a needy little child?
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Old 05-22-2009, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,556,197 times
Reputation: 35864
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcashley View Post
--why doesn't anyone care enough to open their homes and hearts to a needy little child?
Many people want to, but there are too many obstructing regulations getting in the way. If all the available children for adoption were set out on the backs of flat bed trucks in mall parking lots, for families to just come and take, they'd be gone by noon.

We have people taking leave from work and spending months in China to get children, because that is easier than the red tape of adopting in the USA.
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Old 05-22-2009, 09:48 PM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
3,196 posts, read 4,716,763 times
Reputation: 976
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Many people want to, but there are too many obstructing regulations getting in the way. If all the available children for adoption were set out on the backs of flat bed trucks in mall parking lots, for families to just come and take, they'd be gone by noon.

We have people taking leave from work and spending months in China to get children, because that is easier than the red tape of adopting in the USA.
That is not at all true...California has such a shortage of people willing to adopt children (not babies) that there are even special payments made to people willing tro adopt a 5+ yr old child.
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Old 05-22-2009, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,556,197 times
Reputation: 35864
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcashley View Post
That is not at all true...California has such a shortage of people willing to adopt children (not babies) that there are even special payments made to people willing tro adopt a 5+ yr old child.
There is a shortage of "qualified" people to adopt. Any hillbillies can have their own baby, but to adopt one, you have to look like a family that just bought a new lawn tractor in a TV ad.

San Bernardino County's website says it will take from 6 to 9 months to complete the paperwork to get a child adopted, unless it is a "special needs" child, when it can be done in "months". In other words it takes about the same length of time to go through the red tape as it takes the hillbillies to gestate a new child from scratch. This doesn't make it sound like they have much of a sense of urgency about getting those kids into adoptive homes.

http://hss.co.san-bernardino.ca.us/DCS/Adoption/faq.htm

Last edited by jtur88; 05-22-2009 at 11:04 PM..
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